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Thread: 7500 RPM+ with Hydraulic rollers?

  1. #26
    Osee's Avatar
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    So essentially a high revving boosted 408 is near impossible?


    Mods - TB Spacer, Short Throw Dipstick, Performance Auto Zone Intake "0.30 over bore", R/T Cam, Performance Chip, Radiator Delete

    Rev limiter? that's what valve springs are for!

  2. #27
    Sick 660r's Avatar
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    No. It's not necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by BluRT00 View Post
    Part your red sport out and buy a gen 2. Problem solved.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duner View Post
    Getting that much rpm out of a 408 will be an expensive proposition... but you know this already.

    Boost and torque are my weapons of choice on my 360.
    But then again, I'm a cheap bastage.
    910rwtq, 705rwhp
    with Danno lifters.

    It's revved to 7,500 a few times with new valve springs - accidently, but the valve train isn't under control well enough to expect it to survive it if I made it a regular occurance.

    You can see on the dyno plot that once the valve train starts to have issues, so does the power production.
    I do my best to shift it at 6,500.

    I'm not saying I only want 7500 rpm, but I'm asking what would it take to build a boosted 408 that could still keep pulling way up in the RPM range


    Mods - TB Spacer, Short Throw Dipstick, Performance Auto Zone Intake "0.30 over bore", R/T Cam, Performance Chip, Radiator Delete

    Rev limiter? that's what valve springs are for!

  4. #29
    Sick 660r's Avatar
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    W series heads or similar, solid rollers, shaft mounted rockers and 48* block would make it even better. You can do it with less but what I listed would do it happily.


    Quote Originally Posted by BluRT00 View Post
    Part your red sport out and buy a gen 2. Problem solved.

  5. #30

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    Its pretty much what I started off saying - these guys just all confirmed it. You would need something other than a magnum head, most likely an R3 block, shaft mounted rockers, solid roller lifters and a SLOUGH of other parts. Pass on doing it to a dakota - go get a nice TA challenger, add boost, tune and done


    "The journey is more fun than the destination"

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRT View Post
    Its pretty much what I started off saying - these guys just all confirmed it. You would need something other than a magnum head, most likely an R3 block, shaft mounted rockers, solid roller lifters and a SLOUGH of other parts. Pass on doing it to a dakota - go get a nice TA challenger, add boost, tune and done
    I was just about to say, if I need to get away from magnum/LA I'm getting a Hemi.


    Mods - TB Spacer, Short Throw Dipstick, Performance Auto Zone Intake "0.30 over bore", R/T Cam, Performance Chip, Radiator Delete

    Rev limiter? that's what valve springs are for!

  7. #32

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    Absolutely no hydraulic lifters available for a stock magnum block I would trust to 7500. Personally nothing I would feel real comfortable with regularly spinning over 6500 without going to solid lifters
    408, HiPoTek, FRP Tuning, Martin Saine 46re
    12.33 @ 110
    2018 Renegade Raceway Summit Series Sportsman Champion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osee View Post
    Not a fan of a solid roller on the street.
    Been running solid rollers lifters since 2007, todays oil and metal are a lot better than what they had in 1969, you only need to adjust solid rollers once a year, mine I have checked twice and they moved at most .001" which ain't shit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osee View Post
    I was just about to say, if I need to get away from magnum/LA I'm getting a Hemi.
    Take my advice, put your money into a gen III hemi, you can buy hellcat blocks from mopar for $1450, get a set of thytek heads and make stupid power with a hydraulic lifter and still not need to go over 6500 rpm to do it.
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    I short shifted mine before the 6600 shift light went off and damn near matched my best et.
    Why the infatuation with spinning it to the moon?
    11.27 @ 118.23
    2017 NM Mopar Challenge Series Champion

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adobedude View Post
    I short shifted mine before the 6600 shift light went off and damn near matched my best et.
    Why the infatuation with spinning it to the moon?
    Same reason you built the Tin Can, because you wanted to.


    Mods - TB Spacer, Short Throw Dipstick, Performance Auto Zone Intake "0.30 over bore", R/T Cam, Performance Chip, Radiator Delete

    Rev limiter? that's what valve springs are for!

  12. #37



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    But the Tin Can works...
    Does spinning a motor to 7500 just because you want to work?
    11.27 @ 118.23
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    But there's Waaaaaaay more than lifters to worry about if you plan on spinning a Magnum to 7500, everything else will give up before the lifters do.
    11.27 @ 118.23
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    wait...did I see you say aluminum rods?!

    do not run aluminum rods unless it's a motor you tear down and rebuild all the time. Stick with steel. Look at cyclic loading and how it fatigues the metal. The more cycles you stress the metal, the weaker it becomes. This stress can be within it's yield strength, where there is no permanent deformation.

    the only metal that is thought of as not having this problem is steel. The cyclic loading and failure point of steel essentially flat lines to where it never gets weaker, wheras all other metals continue to get weaker and weaker with cyclic loading.
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    Aka endurence limit and Its not so well believe anymore. If you're really looking for a light weight rod then you can consider titanium rods.


    Quote Originally Posted by BluRT00 View Post
    Part your red sport out and buy a gen 2. Problem solved.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filthy Filbert View Post
    wait...did I see you say aluminum rods?!

    do not run aluminum rods unless it's a motor you tear down and rebuild all the time. Stick with steel. Look at cyclic loading and how it fatigues the metal. The more cycles you stress the metal, the weaker it becomes. This stress can be within it's yield strength, where there is no permanent deformation.

    the only metal that is thought of as not having this problem is steel. The cyclic loading and failure point of steel essentially flat lines to where it never gets weaker, wheras all other metals continue to get weaker and weaker with cyclic loading.
    I'm fully aware of all of this, but it's too late.




    Mods - TB Spacer, Short Throw Dipstick, Performance Auto Zone Intake "0.30 over bore", R/T Cam, Performance Chip, Radiator Delete

    Rev limiter? that's what valve springs are for!

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adobedude View Post
    But the Tin Can works...
    Does spinning a motor to 7500 just because you want to work?
    I'm shifting at 5800-5900 and trapping around 6200. Still pulling hard at 6200 so I know I'd gain some spinning higher. Don't care though, I'd rather leave some on the table for the sake of longevity.
    408, HiPoTek, FRP Tuning, Martin Saine 46re
    12.33 @ 110
    2018 Renegade Raceway Summit Series Sportsman Champion

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    ^^^ what he said, built my 408 in 2010, and I race the shit out of it.
    11.27 @ 118.23
    2017 NM Mopar Challenge Series Champion

  19. #44




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    Mine was broke all the time, but it can turn 8K, makes sense......
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  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osee View Post
    What heads/Cam and how much boost do you run? You can see you loose valve control past 6600.
    Yes. Once the valve springs start to get tired - they don't work all that well.
    I now have a better feel for how long they last before they start to complain.

    Sorry guys, no real "build" thread anywhere.
    The closest thread would be here:
    http://www.dakotart.com/forum/showth...014-TOTQ-Duner

    It remains a work in progress and subject to change without notice. LOL

    2.02 EQ heads CBE (home ported)
    Comp cams 236° duration, .546"/.546", 114° lsa
    18 psi of intercooled boost on good gas (blue line) and race tune
    14 psi of intercooled boost on 91 octane (red line) and street tune

    Osee - I hope you have better luck with aluminum rods on the street than I did back in my "early" hot-rodding days. I tried running a set of "used" sprint car rods that somebody gave me. They obviously knew they were used up, but the dumb kid >(me)< went: "ooooh, shiny!" and ground on a block for a week and hacked an oil pan to pieces modifying it to work. Yeah, it lasted a short time on the street. Then it spread oily bits and shrapnel all over the place when one of them gave up. LOL

    My attempts at running mechanical injection on the street met with equal results... but hey, how many kids back then had stacks? Hahaha
    Duner
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duner View Post
    Yes. Once the valve springs start to get tired - they don't work all that well.
    I now have a better feel for how long they last before they start to complain.

    Sorry guys, no real "build" thread anywhere.
    The closest thread would be here:
    http://www.dakotart.com/forum/showth...014-TOTQ-Duner

    It remains a work in progress and subject to change without notice. LOL

    2.02 EQ heads CBE (home ported)
    Comp cams 236° duration, .546"/.546", 114° lsa
    18 psi of intercooled boost on good gas (blue line) and race tune
    14 psi of intercooled boost on 91 octane (red line) and street tune

    Osee - I hope you have better luck with aluminum rods on the street than I did back in my "early" hot-rodding days. I tried running a set of "used" sprint car rods that somebody gave me. They obviously knew they were used up, but the dumb kid >(me)< went: "ooooh, shiny!" and ground on a block for a week and hacked an oil pan to pieces modifying it to work. Yeah, it lasted a short time on the street. Then it spread oily bits and shrapnel all over the place when one of them gave up. LOL

    My attempts at running mechanical injection on the street met with equal results... but hey, how many kids back then had stacks? Hahaha
    I'm super impressed with how you can make that power with the EQ's any idea what your's flow?

    I'm fully aware of the probability of the rods snapping, I got my stroker piston's for $500CAD and the rods for $400 CAD which were "run for 1000 km on the street" before the guys friends convinced him to go to steel rods. I'll go with a forged scat crank and see how long it lives.

    How many PSI were you able to get out of your Vortech before the whole belt slip issue?


    Mods - TB Spacer, Short Throw Dipstick, Performance Auto Zone Intake "0.30 over bore", R/T Cam, Performance Chip, Radiator Delete

    Rev limiter? that's what valve springs are for!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adobedude View Post
    But the Tin Can works...
    Does spinning a motor to 7500 just because you want to work?
    If it was semi-feasible I would've liked to do it.


    Mods - TB Spacer, Short Throw Dipstick, Performance Auto Zone Intake "0.30 over bore", R/T Cam, Performance Chip, Radiator Delete

    Rev limiter? that's what valve springs are for!

  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osee View Post
    I'm super impressed with how you can make that power with the EQ's any idea what your's flow?

    I'm fully aware of the probability of the rods snapping, I got my stroker piston's for $500CAD and the rods for $400 CAD which were "run for 1000 km on the street" before the guys friends convinced him to go to steel rods. I'll go with a forged scat crank and see how long it lives.

    How many PSI were you able to get out of your Vortech before the whole belt slip issue?
    I worked on those EQ heads until I couldn't stand grinding on them anymore, to end up with right at 290 cfm @ .600 lift on the flowbench. But of course I don't actually lift the valves that high with my setup. LOL 18psi of boost is what does all the heavy lifting. I'm pushing it all through a 52mm 2-barrel throttle body and 2bbl M1 intake. The intake limits the cfm - so the head work might have been for nothing in the end - until I swap to a 4bbl and find out.

    I was spinning my Vortech way faster than they said to - and got it to 18 psi through the traps when the belt was new - and before it snapped. A weekend like Truckin' Nats would cost me 4 or 5 belts if I wanted to try and make that much boost. Luckily that setup was intercooled also, because I know it was way out of the efficiency part of the map. It was just too small of a blower for what I was trying to do, but pushed me into a turbo setup and man what a difference.
    Duner
    4.7 Turbocharged CC in white - 12's
    5.9 Turbocharged RC in black - 10's

    1999 Dodge Dakota R/T RC Turbo: 10.51 @ 130.13 MPH

  24. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick 660r View Post
    Aka endurence limit and Its not so well believe anymore. If you're really looking for a light weight rod then you can consider titanium rods.

    I haven't done any personal testing, nor do I have any personal experience with aluminum rods, but material engineers still firmly believe in metal fatigue from cyclic loading.

    See section on fatigue.
    http://www.learneasy.info/MDME/MEMmo...roperties.html
    --Tom
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  25. #50
    Sick 660r's Avatar
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    I wasn't disagreeing with you. There's no doubt alum fails due to fatigue.


    Quote Originally Posted by BluRT00 View Post
    Part your red sport out and buy a gen 2. Problem solved.

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