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Thread: FYI for any of you running 3800+ convertor

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    Danno's Avatar
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    Default FYI for any of you running 3800+ convertor

    Something you guys need to start checking out, when you go to smaller diameter convertors, is the clearance between the flexplate tone ring and the actual convertor body itself.

    I just got a 9.5" 4500 convertor, and I had it flipped upside down on the bench and was test fitting a 318 Maggy flexplate to it. I noticed that the flexplate was being held about .060" or so above the bolt pads on the convertor. What is hitting is the tone ring on the actual welds of where the face of the convertor is welded to the body. So not something that can be "ground down" to get rid of it. And just ignoring it, and bolting the convertor down, could cause all sorts of issues with keeping convertor bolts tight, and putting extra stress on the flexplate causing it to crack and break easier.

    Only real solution ( other than converting to MS and a crank trigger ) is to mill down the flexplate tone ring area.

    Also dont forget to make sure that the flexplate to crank bolts are shallow enough on the head that they dont contact the convertor when installed! This can wipe a pump on a trans, or the thrust bearings in the engine! Ive seen it cost guys both a motor and a trans... so be careful on this, and it is a KNOWN Mopar issue.


    99 DA RC To Be Discovered AKA Smokey
    98 DA CC 11.59@118 AKA Barney

    [Duner] : I was afraid I was going to go too fast and scare myself. Lucky for me - the DA rose up to save me.

    [Kotta390] : Oh that's right! Well FML.....Looks like I am getting shafted because of my bore size

    [BlakDak71] : I don't run oil, I run a special blend consisting of Hellman's mayo and the tears of a pregnant mermaid

    [Kotta390] : My electric water pump puts out too much fuel at idle and is not a variable pump which makes it overheat in the summer at idle if I sit too long

    [KotaRT] : Ed, you can have cake, as long as I get something in return

  2. #2

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    I second the above information, as is why I was having so many converter bolt problems with my original 318 magy flex plate on my 9.5" converter.
    390ci 11.13@120mph N/A

    Quote Originally Posted by Adobedude View Post
    Carbs don't die....PCMs and 727's do

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    Damn...

    Now I'll never get any sleep because worrying about converter bolts.

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    krs1r/t's Avatar
    want more inchs STROKE IT

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    I have no such problems!








    Cause I have no trans

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    Friggin' R/T's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krs1r/t View Post
    I have no such problems!







    Cause I have no trans

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    Duner's Avatar
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    I wonder if that's part of the 3/8" spacer setup on the PI converters?
    Duner
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    ironsport1000's Avatar
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    Chris O.(Five9Dak) had this issue with his 727 install. He just chucked on a lathe and turned it down to fit. IIRC

    BLACK '02 RC R/T (BLACK N BITTER) 12.5 @ 109 mph. Under the knife again.
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    Blown and Squirted

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    Yeah I encountered this issue and milled my flex plate tone ring to suit.

    '99 R/T- MSIIextra fuel/spark/idle, ZCP mx422 supercharged, ZCP Tbrake 727, PPC 10" 3800, 4.10, (\/) Headers, 2.5" Duals, Truetrac, Boyd Timeless 6's, Hotchkis TVS.
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  9. #9


    Blown and Squirted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duner View Post
    I wonder if that's part of the 3/8" spacer setup on the PI converters?
    I don't believe so, I think that is because their converters are thicker than OE spec.

    This issue is that most billet 9/9.5/10" covers have meat that interferes with the tone ring, as they are usually used with flat, LA, SFI flex plates.

    I offered to do this machining operation for Danno. If anyone else needs it, let me know. Without measurements for all available covers, I would need an accurate measurement of what interference you are experiencing and mill to suit. I believe mine needed .055" taken off.

    It is also important to make sure the converter pilot doesn't bottom out in the crank, and you have clearance for the converter to pull out of the pump and towards the flex plate before you install the converter bolts.

    If you have a dual pattern converter cover, the wider lugs will hit one of the external balence lugs. So if you have a stock 5.9 with a dual lug converter, after you fix the tone ring interference, a corner of one of the weights will also need to be milled down. I have had my motor up to 6k rpm without any noticeable ill effects. I want to say this cut is only about 10% of the mass of one weight.

    And of course, if you use 7/16" bolts like most decent converter covers use, the holes will have to be drilled/reamed out to suit.
    Last edited by Five9Dak; 12-13-2013 at 01:00 PM.

    '99 R/T- MSIIextra fuel/spark/idle, ZCP mx422 supercharged, ZCP Tbrake 727, PPC 10" 3800, 4.10, (\/) Headers, 2.5" Duals, Truetrac, Boyd Timeless 6's, Hotchkis TVS.
    Z Code Performance Website

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    y2krtaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duner View Post
    I wonder if that's part of the 3/8" spacer setup on the PI converters?
    Yep,anyone need a PI convertor with about 300 miles on it?

  11. #11


    GoFastGray's Avatar
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    This must be why Martin Saine supplies the flex plate bolts with heads half shaven off and makes sure you use them
    12.10@106@Famoso Raceway

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    BluRT00's Avatar
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    Good info guys, will check into this on the weekend. Got a PTC 9.5 on my tf727 setup. Might have to do what Mr Orlando had to do on the tone rig.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Duner View Post
    I wonder if that's part of the 3/8" spacer setup on the PI converters?
    I agree with Chris, has nothing to do with this issue. That spacer only widens the distance between the crank hub and the pump housing, allowing the convertor to be thicker overall. It does not affect the interaction of the flexplate to the convertor, which is where this specific issue is.

    I didnt want to speak for Chris about the machining, but yes, I will be taking him up on that offer when I am closer to being ready to put this thing in.

    99 DA RC To Be Discovered AKA Smokey
    98 DA CC 11.59@118 AKA Barney

    [Duner] : I was afraid I was going to go too fast and scare myself. Lucky for me - the DA rose up to save me.

    [Kotta390] : Oh that's right! Well FML.....Looks like I am getting shafted because of my bore size

    [BlakDak71] : I don't run oil, I run a special blend consisting of Hellman's mayo and the tears of a pregnant mermaid

    [Kotta390] : My electric water pump puts out too much fuel at idle and is not a variable pump which makes it overheat in the summer at idle if I sit too long

    [KotaRT] : Ed, you can have cake, as long as I get something in return

  14. #14


    Danno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoFastGray View Post
    This must be why Martin Saine supplies the flex plate bolts with heads half shaven off and makes sure you use them
    Flexplate to crank bolts... yes, that is what I put that bit at the end of my OP.

    And even then, they are not thin enough sometimes. This is something that needs to be checked EVERY TIME a different setup is installed.

    99 DA RC To Be Discovered AKA Smokey
    98 DA CC 11.59@118 AKA Barney

    [Duner] : I was afraid I was going to go too fast and scare myself. Lucky for me - the DA rose up to save me.

    [Kotta390] : Oh that's right! Well FML.....Looks like I am getting shafted because of my bore size

    [BlakDak71] : I don't run oil, I run a special blend consisting of Hellman's mayo and the tears of a pregnant mermaid

    [Kotta390] : My electric water pump puts out too much fuel at idle and is not a variable pump which makes it overheat in the summer at idle if I sit too long

    [KotaRT] : Ed, you can have cake, as long as I get something in return

  15. #15


    Danno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluRT00 View Post
    Good info guys, will check into this on the weekend. Got a PTC 9.5 on my tf727 setup. Might have to do what Mr Orlando had to do on the tone rig.
    Mine is a PTC as well Dan, so I am thinking you have the same issue.

    99 DA RC To Be Discovered AKA Smokey
    98 DA CC 11.59@118 AKA Barney

    [Duner] : I was afraid I was going to go too fast and scare myself. Lucky for me - the DA rose up to save me.

    [Kotta390] : Oh that's right! Well FML.....Looks like I am getting shafted because of my bore size

    [BlakDak71] : I don't run oil, I run a special blend consisting of Hellman's mayo and the tears of a pregnant mermaid

    [Kotta390] : My electric water pump puts out too much fuel at idle and is not a variable pump which makes it overheat in the summer at idle if I sit too long

    [KotaRT] : Ed, you can have cake, as long as I get something in return

  16. #16


    99dart's Avatar
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    I had another issue to watch out for. I have the MS Ultra billet. The snout is about 1/4" too long. Even tho Danno & I checked clearances the damn thing expanded enough that it bottomed in the pump & the surfaces eat each other. Martin made & sent me a spacer. I probably should have just sent him the convertor to have cut down.
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    BluRT00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Mine is a PTC as well Dan, so I am thinking you have the same issue.
    Got the old transmission out, and pulled the flex plate to bolt to new tc. Sure enough the damn thing is bottoming out. I am trying to figure out where exactly it would need to be machined. Here's some close up pictures of the flex plate bolted down to the tc.






  18. #18


    Danno's Avatar
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    Yep,

    EXACTLY what mine looks like.

    You are going to have to have the flexplate machined down where its touching the convertor. So that area where the tone ring notch's are will get narrower overall....

    99 DA RC To Be Discovered AKA Smokey
    98 DA CC 11.59@118 AKA Barney

    [Duner] : I was afraid I was going to go too fast and scare myself. Lucky for me - the DA rose up to save me.

    [Kotta390] : Oh that's right! Well FML.....Looks like I am getting shafted because of my bore size

    [BlakDak71] : I don't run oil, I run a special blend consisting of Hellman's mayo and the tears of a pregnant mermaid

    [Kotta390] : My electric water pump puts out too much fuel at idle and is not a variable pump which makes it overheat in the summer at idle if I sit too long

    [KotaRT] : Ed, you can have cake, as long as I get something in return

  19. #19

    BluRT00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Yep,

    EXACTLY what mine looks like.

    You are going to have to have the flexplate machined down where its touching the convertor. So that area where the tone ring notch's are will get narrower overall....
    Uhhhh that would mean machining the whole edge down. I'm worried it would basically machine up into the notches. Won't that screw things up? Or the CPS only cares about the sides, not the ends facing engine and transmission?

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    Danno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluRT00 View Post
    Uhhhh that would mean machining the whole edge down. I'm worried it would basically machine up into the notches. Won't that screw things up? Or the CPS only cares about the sides, not the ends facing engine and transmission?
    I dont think you will have to remove all of it into the notches, but it will get close.

    99 DA RC To Be Discovered AKA Smokey
    98 DA CC 11.59@118 AKA Barney

    [Duner] : I was afraid I was going to go too fast and scare myself. Lucky for me - the DA rose up to save me.

    [Kotta390] : Oh that's right! Well FML.....Looks like I am getting shafted because of my bore size

    [BlakDak71] : I don't run oil, I run a special blend consisting of Hellman's mayo and the tears of a pregnant mermaid

    [Kotta390] : My electric water pump puts out too much fuel at idle and is not a variable pump which makes it overheat in the summer at idle if I sit too long

    [KotaRT] : Ed, you can have cake, as long as I get something in return

  21. #21

    BluRT00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    I dont think you will have to remove all of it into the notches, but it will get close.
    I'm gonna contact Chris O in a pm to see what he can do. The gap I have from the face of the bolt holes in TC, to backside of the flexplate is pretty damn big.

  22. #22


    Danno's Avatar
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    Looked about the same as mine. .050-.060" or so

    99 DA RC To Be Discovered AKA Smokey
    98 DA CC 11.59@118 AKA Barney

    [Duner] : I was afraid I was going to go too fast and scare myself. Lucky for me - the DA rose up to save me.

    [Kotta390] : Oh that's right! Well FML.....Looks like I am getting shafted because of my bore size

    [BlakDak71] : I don't run oil, I run a special blend consisting of Hellman's mayo and the tears of a pregnant mermaid

    [Kotta390] : My electric water pump puts out too much fuel at idle and is not a variable pump which makes it overheat in the summer at idle if I sit too long

    [KotaRT] : Ed, you can have cake, as long as I get something in return

  23. #23

    BluRT00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Looked about the same as mine. .050-.060" or so
    Well lets see what Chris says. Do you have a picture of his milled down?

  24. #24


    Danno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluRT00 View Post
    Well lets see what Chris says. Do you have a picture of his milled down?
    Nosir, I just figured this all out when I posted the OP.. lol. I think Chris has already fixed his own...

    99 DA RC To Be Discovered AKA Smokey
    98 DA CC 11.59@118 AKA Barney

    [Duner] : I was afraid I was going to go too fast and scare myself. Lucky for me - the DA rose up to save me.

    [Kotta390] : Oh that's right! Well FML.....Looks like I am getting shafted because of my bore size

    [BlakDak71] : I don't run oil, I run a special blend consisting of Hellman's mayo and the tears of a pregnant mermaid

    [Kotta390] : My electric water pump puts out too much fuel at idle and is not a variable pump which makes it overheat in the summer at idle if I sit too long

    [KotaRT] : Ed, you can have cake, as long as I get something in return

  25. #25


    Blown and Squirted

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    Mine had .050 interference and I took off .055. I am not going to ASSume they are all the same. I have a suspicion that most converter shops are using the same covers, so most will likely be the same. I can fix it for you, I replied to your PM.

    I would climb under my truck and get a picture for you, but its burried in the snow. Imagine what you have, with .055 off the edge of the tone ring. It did not intersect the windows. Even if it did, I suspect the CPS would still function fine since the edges it measures would be unaffected.

    I have a couple 318 flywheels in the garage, maybe I'll do a batch if you two come up with similar measurements.
    Last edited by Five9Dak; 12-18-2013 at 09:53 PM.

    '99 R/T- MSIIextra fuel/spark/idle, ZCP mx422 supercharged, ZCP Tbrake 727, PPC 10" 3800, 4.10, (\/) Headers, 2.5" Duals, Truetrac, Boyd Timeless 6's, Hotchkis TVS.
    Z Code Performance Website

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