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Thread: Shop messed up the R/T. Now what?!

  1. #151


    OG DRTC

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    re-read what I said. my details are not mixed up.
    I think you need to go back and re-read what you said. You said the shop couldn't get it to run over 1KRPM, but they did have it running. It's anyones guess as to how well it was running because nobody on here including OP really knows.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hskr View Post
    I think you need to go back and re-read what you said. You said the shop couldn't get it to run over 1KRPM, but they did have it running. It's anyones guess as to how well it was running because nobody on here including OP really knows.
    Ok. Maybe a typo on my part. I knew they had it running, but couldn't get it to idle, if I stated the opposite of that somehow, then it was a case of my brain working faster than my fingers. I'm the one who sold him the cam, and told him everything that needed done to install it, to include the valvesprings/retainers, and I've been talking with Eric a lot via text, outside of the forum here, and now he wants me to check it out and get it running. He toyed with having me do it initially, but decided to go with the local shop since I'm 4 hours away. Now it looks like I'll be the one to get it running anyway!! Haha!
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    blackknight's Avatar
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    Nice! The point is to get it running and stop complaining and ranting whats done is done now get on with it and fix it for him, whew! I would tear it completely apart myself regardless of who had it running or what not, start fresh and do it right no half ass shit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    first thing I'll do once I get it here, is tear it apart. heads will come off and I'm going to pull them apart and check the valves for signs of any damage. if he's lucky, we just need valve springs and retainers, and the gaskets to put it all back together for $300 worth of parts.

    I told him we're not gonna order anything though till it's all been checked out. if the heads got jacked up and need new valves or a valve job, then it might be cheaper to buy a set of heads already rebuilt by Hughes with the right springs/retainers on them already, for $775.
    What ever you do, don't go to Hughes and buy his overpriced and hacked up junk.
    Spend the kids money wisely, and buy heads(if needed) from Indy or RHS.
    I tell you this from my own experience from buying stuff from Dave Hughes. I purchased a set of his supposed Ported Stage 1 Edelbrock heads. My engine never really seemed to have the power and grunt it should have had. I took the heads to a reputable engine builder in Windsor, Beauchamp Motorsports, and it cost me almost a $1,000.00 to fix Hughes' mess he had made with ports, chambers and valve seats.
    Edelbrock Magnum heads, Harland-Sharp 1:6 RR, Jomar Performance Ultra-Lite Stud Girdle, SoutheastPerformance Sheet Metal Valve Covers, Custom Hyd Roller from Reed Cams, Mopar M-1 2 Brl Intake, Hughes Stage 1 TB, JBA SS Headers, Jacobs Electronics Pro Street Ignition System and Wires, MBRP 'Cuda Style Exhaust, Western Chassis 2" drop front and rear, Edelbrock IAS Shocks, Terry DeLong Pro-Glass Shaker Hood

  5. #155


    OG DRTC

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    I agree the truck should have no problem running that cam. And both places he has taken it saying otherwise tells me they really don't know how to work on modern Mopars. Unless somehow the first shop installed a different cam than what he provided.


  6. #156
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    I am sure that people will respond by telling me that I don't know what I am talking about, but IME, a 220 cam with a stock piston 318 and 1.7rr could very well have serious P2V issues ... flame suit on .... this is of course in addition to he more obvious and aforementioned issues of coil bind and retainer clearance...

    I had issues with .544 lift with the 206x and big valve heads, aimforsquirrels on bionicdodge had similiar problems, and a guy on devilbrad with much less duration had pretty close clearance ... them 318 maggy pistons DON'T have valve reliefs....
    1998 Dodge Dakota RC 5.2L 5spd - Eddie Heads, 212/218 114lsa cam, PPH headers, Vortech V2, M1 2bbl, 50mm TB
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    Quote Originally Posted by meangreen View Post
    I am sure that people will respond by telling me that I don't know what I am talking about, but IME, a 220 cam with a stock piston 318 and 1.7rr could very well have serious P2V issues ... flame suit on .... this is of course in addition to he more obvious and aforementioned issues of coil bind and retainer clearance...

    I had issues with .544 lift with the 206x and big valve heads, aimforsquirrels on bionicdodge had similiar problems, and a guy on devilbrad with much less duration had pretty close clearance ... them 318 maggy pistons DON'T have valve reliefs....
    might be the case. but this cam is now in a 360. when it was in my 318 it was on 1.6 ratio rockers, and only .507 lift. with the 1.7s I believe it's .538 of lift, not .544". however, Im not having any issues with .544 lift and 222 duration @ .050 on my 360, and the heads are shaved .030 and running the .039 had gaskets, stock pistons with the stock dish. the pistons were .040 in the hole plus the depth of the giant dish on them.

    also, these are stock size valves, which leaves more room for error than the large valves you said you were running.

    but, like I said, the first thing I'm going to do is tear this thing apart and see what we've got, and the heads will come off, just to make sure there's no P/V issues, and that the heads are fine.


    as to what heads we'd get if we needed to, I'll shop around for the cheapest factory replacement heads I can find, to include getting a quote from a local shop to install new valves w/ a valve job. Not looking for anything that's been ported or had oversize valves installed. if Eric wants to get better heads like edelbrocks or R/T heads or something that's ported...that's up to him...and I believe, his dad since he keeps telling us he's out of money after paying the first shop $1200 to break his stuff
    --Tom
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  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    first thing I'll do once I get it here, is tear it apart. heads will come off and I'm going to pull them apart and check the valves for signs of any damage. if he's lucky, we just need valve springs and retainers, and the gaskets to put it all back together for $300 worth of parts.

    I told him we're not gonna order anything though till it's all been checked out. if the heads got jacked up and need new valves or a valve job, then it might be cheaper to buy a set of heads already rebuilt by Hughes with the right springs/retainers on them already, for $775.
    I think you're going to find the valve guide seals wasted, and the tops of the guides will probably be all mushroomed over. I had this issue. Clearwater built me a set of heads that were supposed to be good for .520 lift. Turned out that they went into coil bind @ .485, the truck ran for 5000 miles like that. By then there was so much of the valve guide bits in the oil pan, that I lost oil pressure and spun 2 rod bearings. Clearwater made good on the heads and built me a proper set for free, which I immediately had redone locally. But I ate the short block. You probably won't see any bent vales though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joskanner View Post
    Tom, when you get the R/T you need to take pics and document EVERY step of the rebuild so there will be evidence of the incompetence of the shop. Then if Eric wants to recover his losses, he should have all he needs to sue for his losses and damages.
    I plan to. plus he'll get any and all broken parts back in a box.

    my only concern if he does pursue this in a court, is whether he has a written estimate that says what they agreed to do, including the valve springs...no written estimate, makes it a his word vs the shops, the shop could say "he never told us to change the springs, just install the cam"
    --Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joskanner View Post
    That is a valid point but, if they tried to use that defense it would just prove how stupid and incompetent they really are!!
    True, but in a court of law, the judge, and/or jury might not be car guys. you might argue that point, but they might not care, and it could come down to "what did the written contract state? what was actually performed?"
    --Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    I plan to. plus he'll get any and all broken parts back in a box.

    my only concern if he does pursue this in a court, is whether he has a written estimate that says what they agreed to do, including the valve springs...no written estimate, makes it a his word vs the shops, the shop could say "he never told us to change the springs, just install the cam"
    That's what my dad was saying.But they told me I wouldn't need them as long as I kept the rpms below 5k ... after they did evrything. They called me today with concern. I let it goto voicemail. They wanna know if I'm gonna lettuem put it back to normal and pay $400... hell I wouldn't let them change my oil ha


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  12. #162


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    Quote Originally Posted by fortino555 View Post
    That's what my dad was saying.But they told me I wouldn't need them as long as I kept the rpms below 5k ... after they did evrything. They called me today with concern. I let it goto voicemail. They wanna know if I'm gonna lettuem put it back to normal and pay $400... hell I wouldn't let them change my oil ha
    A simple diagram of how a pushrod valvetrain works would dispell this ignorance.

    You wouldn't have trouble proving they are incompetent.

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    if the valve springs could handle more than .500 lift, then yea, you would have been ok below 5000 rpm, because the stock valve springs are so soft. they are not strong enough to control the valve train at higher RPM. so in that sense, they are right....you can run a performance cam with weak springs, you just can't spin the RPM as high.

    ...until you toss in the fact that the springs run into coil bind.
    --Tom
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  14. #164



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    In my opinion; there will be no court case, unless he and his Dad file it themselves in small claims. A lawyer will want to be paid, or if they take the case Pro Bono, then it will have to be worth the trouble dollar-wise.
    If the shop attempted to make some sort of remedy to the situation, then they have done all they need to do in the eyes of the law.
    It is likely that this will just end up being an expensive lesson.
    Alan Short
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    Not by asking them to pay an additional $400 to fix it. I'd give it a shot in small claims court. Would be hard for the shop to say "yeah, we're trained...and we put that cam in there anyway knowing it needed springs with a different camshaft installed but we just told him to keep this performance cam below 5k and below the peak power it would give".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intense RT View Post
    Not by asking them to pay an additional $400 to fix it. I'd give it a shot in small claims court. Would be hard for the shop to say "yeah, we're trained...and we put that cam in there anyway knowing it needed springs with a different camshaft installed but we just told him to keep this performance cam below 5k and below the peak power it would give".
    I agree on the small claims deal vs full blown lawsuit.

    and I also agree on "the shop didn't offer to fix anyting" according to what Eric has posted here, they kept offering to upsell him stuff, not fix their mistakes.

    first they tried to upsell him a carb, which would need a new intake and distributor, costing him an easy $1200 for everything, and do nothing but cause more trouble from all the EFI sensors that the computer can't "see" anymore.

    second, they offered to upsell him more work, by offering to install a DIFFERENT cam for another $400 on top of the $1200 he already paid them to fuck his shit up.

    I see no offers to fix their mistakes, again, according to the way Eric has posted it here.
    --Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    I agree on the small claims deal vs full blown lawsuit.

    and I also agree on "the shop didn't offer to fix anyting" according to what Eric has posted here, they kept offering to upsell him stuff, not fix their mistakes.

    first they tried to upsell him a carb, which would need a new intake and distributor, costing him an easy $1200 for everything, and do nothing but cause more trouble from all the EFI sensors that the computer can't "see" anymore.

    second, they offered to upsell him more work, by offering to install a DIFFERENT cam for another $400 on top of the $1200 he already paid them to fuck his shit up.

    I see no offers to fix their mistakes, again, according to the way Eric has posted it here.

    2 things to consider:

    1) This isn't a repair, it's a performance upgrade with used parts. The shop can defend that however they want.

    2) The Judge isn't likely to know a spark plug from a freeze plug, so don't look for him to understand anything about cam specs, or installing them properly.

    IMO, it will be a tremendous waste of time to take it to court.
    Alan Short
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    Yes, court, even small claims, won't be easy, and he's gonna have to consider if it's worth it or not to try, but it'd be pretty easy to get a letter or something from a reputable engine builder to say that the springs had to be changed and that anyone claiming to be a performance shop should know that since cam swaps have been around for probably 75 years. And used parts are not an excuse, we've all used "used" parts before and not had problems when installed correctly.

    But yea, getting money in court is a long uphill battle
    --Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    But yea, getting money in court is a long uphill battle
    Speaking of which; a judgment isn't a check. They still don't have to pay if they don't want to.
    Alan Short
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    Quote Originally Posted by grapejuice1998 View Post
    Speaking of which; a judgment isn't a check. They still don't have to pay if they don't want to.
    You got that right!! Kind of like tits on a bore hog.......TOTALLY FRIGGIN' USELESS!!!!
    I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake.


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    Yea, but tits on anything are nice to see.












    (REAL tits, not some saggy ass floppy man boobs--figured I'd toss that disclaimer out there before someone googled up some awful picture if their fat uncle Chester)
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    Did this ever get fixed?

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    Snap On Scanners read sync backwards- + is actually neg. . The old brick scanner.

  24. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by packard1 View Post
    Snap On Scanners read sync backwards- + is actually neg. . The old brick scanner.
    So all they had to do was set the sync and everything was good?

  25. #175

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    Snap On Scanners read sync backwards- + is actually neg. . The old brick scanner.
    My Snap On scanner seemed to work okay. I initially had the dealer set the fuel sync at +4. Then I picked up a Snap On MT2500, and it read about +4. Just curious if this was your personal experience, or do you have a link where you found that info? Thanks!

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