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Thread: Shop messed up the R/T. Now what?!

  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    show them these videos. this is the exact cam that I sold you.

    I pulled the 318 out for my new 360, I removed the cam, wrapped it, and shipped it to you.

    I'm running a stock EFI distributor, MSD ignition, and the SCT tune. all the sensors in the engine are stock.

    when I got the truck, it had this cam in it, and was running on the stock ignition system with the stock coil.

    if they can't get it to run with the SCT tune, then they fucked something up, and you need to quit being nice to them. they need to figure out how to get it running. did they dial in the cam? is it installed correctly? did they use a degree wheel, or just line up some dots? did the ensure it's not way advanced or way retarded?

    have they played with the IAC at all? will it stay running with pedal input? or does it struggle and die no matter what?


    show them this thread, anyone can pull it up and read it, don't need to have a username/password to read the threads here.

    http://youtu.be/yE1TEut-3ZY

    http://youtu.be/PSFEIY5_iws



    Thank you Tom! you never disappoint! I'm bringing my laptop over there tomorrow. I am going to be very disappointed if they can't fix this! I'm out of money and I can't pay another shop.

    Thanks as always,
    Eric


    1999 CC black R/T
    Engine/trans mods
    230/236 cam,Edelbrock heads,1.6 roller rockers,2800 Stall,M1intake,k&n CAI,55mm TB, 4.56 gears,SCT tuned,TransGo shift kit,firecore wires,trans cooler,Spintech mid legnth headers,custom true duals no cats,KB Hyper pistons,Eagle forged I-beam rods,Electric Fan, Caltracs, underdrive pulley, belltech leafs.


    -200+lbs (off the truck)

  2. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    did you find out if it will stay running by using the pedal to keep RPM above 1000 rpm? if it will stay running above 1000 rpm with pedal input, then yes, go drive it, 2-footing the pedal while stopped.
    I had to drive my 408 like that sometimes.

    Rule number 1: Don't mod the daily!

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by grapejuice1998 View Post
    Horseshit!
    like I said in the text...if they just slap a carb and old school distributor on it, yea, it'll run, but then you'll have CELs because the computer won't "see" the IAC, MAP, IAT, or distributor/fuel sync sensors.

    did they run through the basics? Fuel, Air, Spark?

    have they checked the firing order? the distributor isn't 180 out is it? it's doubtful that it's 180 out, as mine wouldn't even fire when it was 180 out...but maybe they've got plug wires on wrong. do you have good fuel pressure? maybe dumb luck that your fuel pump took a dump while they had it all apart. also, check all the grounds. maybe they knocked a ground wire loose or didn't hook one back up when they put it all together. put a battery charger on it to ensure the battery is fully charged? again, these EFI computers and sensors do NOT like low voltage, and won't run right, even if the battery is only a few volts low. how about vacuum leaks? dumb question, but they did use new intake gaskets, right? did they leave a vacuum hose off or something (PCV? Brake booster?) causing a huge vacuum leak?

    you drove a running/driving vehicle in to their shop. a cam change isn't exotic, and shouldn't be this hard. they either installed something wrong, or broke something putting it all back together.

    here's another video. me trying to start the new 5.9 in my truck.

    first attempt, I had the distributor 180 out, because I foolishly didnt double check that I was at TDC on COMPRESSION stroke when I set the distributor in.

    once I flipped the dizzy around, the thing fired right up, without setting my fuel sync or anything.

    no scan tools to set sync, just a fully charged battery...

    http://youtu.be/U9wBb66U3rY

    --Tom
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    I'm a douchebag

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    Quote Originally Posted by Last_in View Post
    I had to drive my 408 like that sometimes.

    Rule number 1: Don't mod the daily!
    says the guy who's building a forged 5.9L with a blower for his "daily driver truck"




    (but, you did buy a FORD for the new daily, right?)
    --Tom
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  5. #30

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    how about everyone here post their cam specs for when he shows it to the shop!

    the cam specs of the cam you just installed (it's the old KRC220 grind)
    is:

    220/230 duration at .050" lift
    .507 lift
    114 LSA

    --using 1.6 ratio rockers. you installed 1.7s right? that'll change your @.050" lift and total lift numbers slightly, but not enough to cause problems.


    the cam in my new engine is "more radical" than your cam, because it's on a tighter LSA, so it's got a choppier idle, and lower vacuum at idle, which means it SHOULD be harder to tune.

    its 222/228 @ .050"
    .544 lift
    107 LSA

    there's also guys here with cams in the 260 range that are tuned with SCT and are running on EFI just fine.
    --Tom
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  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    says the guy who's building a forged 5.9L with a blower for his "daily driver truck"




    (but, you did buy a FORD for the new daily, right?)
    I did! It more powerful than my truck.


  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Last_in View Post
    I did! It more powerful than my truck.
    but...it's so FUGLY!

    that truck is so much better looking than a ragged out FERD.

    oh well...what's the SHO putting out? 300hp? it'll make for a good winter/snow beater. but the Dakota ought to be very streetable and run 11s
    --Tom
    **Photobucket can suck my nut**

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  8. #33



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    How about they set the frigging fuel sync and send him on his way, instead of trying to rip him off by selling him a carb, an intake manifold, a fuel pressure regulator and a distributor?!

    If all else fails, jump in that bitch and two foot it home!
    Alan Short
    D.R.T.C. #15


  9. #34
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    If you have a bigger a cam like that shouldnt he set his fuel sync @+4? I know i am with the krc210 w/1.7rr @.544

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    Quote Originally Posted by grapejuice1998 View Post
    How about they set the frigging fuel sync and send him on his way, instead of trying to rip him off by selling him a carb, an intake manifold, a fuel pressure regulator and a distributor?!

    If all else fails, jump in that bitch and two foot it home!
    shouldn't need to set the fuel sync. see my start up video I just posted? all I did was set the distributor drive gear to point at #1, set the distributor in so the rotor pointed at #1 plug wire terminal on the cap, and it fired right up (once I did it all correctly that is)








    (RTFM is directed at me and my dumb mistake, not your comment)
    --Tom
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    Here she is on the dyno making 285 hp and 325 torque to the wheels....and still no scan tool to set the fuel sync


    not saying that setting it won't get you more power or make it run better, but just that it'll run just fine if it's "close enough"

    --Tom
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  12. #37



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    You are assuming a lot. There is no telling where they have the sync set. Even if you get it right the first time, it's best to check and see where it is.

    The book calls for Zero. I set mine at +4 for many years, but after my recent cam swap, set it to Zero. I don't think it really helps or hurts either way, but if it's radically off, it will not run right.

    How do I know?
    I helped a local put a cam and heads on his truck. I had the distributor set a lot like you and it fired right up. Little by little it started to run rough, then it died while I was checking for leaks. Never could get it restarted. Come to find out that the distributor hold down wasn't tight and the torque from the shaft spinning backed the distributor out of range.
    If the fuel sync is off, especially by a lot, it can make it almost impossible to keep running.
    Alan Short
    D.R.T.C. #15


  13. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    Here she is on the dyno making 285 hp and 325 torque to the wheels....and still no scan tool to set the fuel sync


    not saying that setting it won't get you more power or make it run better, but just that it'll run just fine if it's "close enough"

    [YOUTUBE]u4YXAdjfO6o[YOUTUBE]
    Apparently you got lucky when you stuck your distributor. Stop misleading the guy, fuel sync IS IMPORTANT! Slightly too late will make it run lean, because all of the fuel won't be pulled into the cylinder. Slightly too early will spray against the valve, pool, and wash down the cyl wall. Any more than 8 degrees off and it will run like absolute shit.

    A lot of people on this forum have been down this road, and everyone seems to agree that incorrect fuel sync will cause problems. Anywhere between 0-4 degrees is fine. And it only takes 10 minutes to set it. My local mechanic plugged in his scanner, I turned the distributor to +2 and locked it down. He charged me $20 and it took 5 minutes out of my lunch break.

    Drops panties faster than any R/T

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    fair enough.

    if they line up the rotor to the #1 plug wire though, and lock it down so it doesn't move, it should be "close enough" to run. then they can run down the street to the local midas, jiffy, dealer, or whoever, and make sure it's set at zero to +4. --since it seems a lot of guys are setting it to around plus 4 on their cam swaps
    --Tom
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  15. #40



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    Quote Originally Posted by wyotech_cuda440 View Post
    Apparently you got lucky when you stuck your distributor. Stop misleading the guy, fuel sync IS IMPORTANT! Slightly too late will make it run lean, because all of the fuel won't be pulled into the cylinder. Slightly too early will spray against the valve, pool, and wash down the cyl wall. Any more than 8 degrees off and it will run like absolute shit.

    A lot of people on this forum have been down this road, and everyone seems to agree that incorrect fuel sync will cause problems. Anywhere between 0-4 degrees is fine. And it only takes 10 minutes to set it. My local mechanic plugged in his scanner, I turned the distributor to +2 and locked it down. He charged me $20 and it took 5 minutes out of my lunch break.
    THANK YOU!


    And FYI, mine was right at Zero on my last cam swap too, but I still checked it to see where it was.
    Alan Short
    D.R.T.C. #15


  16. #41



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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    fair enough.

    if they line up the rotor to the #1 plug wire though, and lock it down so it doesn't move, it should be "close enough" to run. then they can run down the street to the local midas, jiffy, dealer, or whoever, and make sure it's set at zero to +4. --since it seems a lot of guys are setting it to around plus 4 on their cam swaps
    If you look at the cam position sensor, you will see that it has a mark on it for aligning the fuel sync. Setting it the way you did (on the #1 plug wire), it will be off a few degrees.
    This is all contingent on the distributor drive shaft being aligned right as well. If that's off one tooth either way, it will corrupt the sync setting.
    Alan Short
    D.R.T.C. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by grapejuice1998 View Post
    THANK YOU!


    And FYI, mine was right at Zero on my last cam swap too, but I still checked it to see where it was.

    however.... since I've never messed with the sync....don't you have to have the truck running to set it? the main point I was trying to make, is that if you install the distributor correctly, it will be close enough to at least run. once it's running, THEN you can set the sync if you want/need to.

    right?

    or are you able to set it on an engine that won't stay running? right now the OPs truck won't even stay running.
    --Tom
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    however.... since I've never messed with the sync....don't you have to have the truck running to set it? the main point I was trying to make, is that if you install the distributor correctly, it will be close enough to at least run. once it's running, THEN you can set the sync if you want/need to.

    right?

    or are you able to set it on an engine that won't stay running? right now the OPs truck won't even stay running.
    I've done 4 cam swaps, last time I had a hard time getting it to start, came in here crying about it, Alan told me to turn the Distributor till it would run...I did. It ran....Limped to the dealer...Set the fuel sync and all was good.

    If OPs won't run at all even with slightly twisting the distributor, it's probably installed 180 out. I've never done it but I guess it's easy to do.
    11.27 @ 118.23
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  19. #44


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    The "fuel synch" really sets when the JTEC sees the cam signal relative to the crank. The ignition rotor phasing and the fuel injector timing. Any of these signifigantly out of spec will lead to problems. That is why this seemingly small adjust is VERY important on these motors. 4* of injection timing doesn't make as big of a deal to internal combustion engines as ours carry on about when the "fuel synch" is off.

    If the cam sensor to crank sensor phasing is far enough off, the computer could think 45* is TDC. There are 8 crank sensor falling edges per rev and one cam sensor falling edge per two revs. Without the cam edge coming before the proper crank pulse, the computer only knows the crank is at some 45* degree interval, which isn't enough information do the ignition or sequential fueling.
    Last edited by Five9Dak; 10-26-2011 at 07:53 PM.

    '99 R/T- MSIIextra fuel/spark/idle, ZCP mx422 supercharged, ZCP Tbrake 727, PPC 10" 3800, 4.10, (\/) Headers, 2.5" Duals, Truetrac, Boyd Timeless 6's, Hotchkis TVS.
    Z Code Performance Website

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    Quote Originally Posted by 70Cuda383 View Post
    however.... since I've never messed with the sync....don't you have to have the truck running to set it? the main point I was trying to make, is that if you install the distributor correctly, it will be close enough to at least run. once it's running, THEN you can set the sync if you want/need to.

    right?

    or are you able to set it on an engine that won't stay running? right now the OPs truck won't even stay running.
    It's obviously not set right (IMO), so they do need to go back and double check the distributor drive shaft position at #1 TDC, then they can use the mark on the cam position sensor to line up the rotor. It should fire off and run well enough to set the sync signal (yes, it needs to be running).
    The distributor drive shaft should point to roughly 5 o'clock/11 o'clock, which if you drew an invisible line from the slot forward, it should point to the front, inside valve cover bolt.
    Alan Short
    D.R.T.C. #15


  21. #46

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    Great info guys! Im going to show them this forum and this thread!!! Does anybody have a carberator in there Dakota here? Ha just interested?


    1999 CC black R/T
    Engine/trans mods
    230/236 cam,Edelbrock heads,1.6 roller rockers,2800 Stall,M1intake,k&n CAI,55mm TB, 4.56 gears,SCT tuned,TransGo shift kit,firecore wires,trans cooler,Spintech mid legnth headers,custom true duals no cats,KB Hyper pistons,Eagle forged I-beam rods,Electric Fan, Caltracs, underdrive pulley, belltech leafs.


    -200+lbs (off the truck)

  22. #47



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    Quote Originally Posted by fortino555 View Post
    Great info guys! Im going to show them this forum and this thread!!! Does anybody have a carberator in there Dakota here? Ha just interested?
    A few....

    That's not the problem with your truck, if they say you need a carb tell em to fuck off...Fucking dumb asses.
    11.27 @ 118.23
    2017 NM Mopar Challenge Series Champion

  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adobedude View Post
    A few....

    That's not the problem with your truck, if they say you need a carb tell em to fuck off...Fucking dumb asses.
    Adobedude, you always make me laugh. Haha your straight to the point!! I love it! Haha


    1999 CC black R/T
    Engine/trans mods
    230/236 cam,Edelbrock heads,1.6 roller rockers,2800 Stall,M1intake,k&n CAI,55mm TB, 4.56 gears,SCT tuned,TransGo shift kit,firecore wires,trans cooler,Spintech mid legnth headers,custom true duals no cats,KB Hyper pistons,Eagle forged I-beam rods,Electric Fan, Caltracs, underdrive pulley, belltech leafs.


    -200+lbs (off the truck)

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five9Dak View Post
    The "fuel synch" really sets when the JTEC sees the cam signal relative to the crank. The ignition rotor phasing and the fuel injector timing. Any of these signifigantly out of spec will lead to problems. That is why this seemingly small adjust is VERY important on these motors. 4* of injection timing doesn't make as big of a deal to internal combustion engines as ours carry on about when the "fuel synch" is off.

    If the cam sensor to crank sensor phasing is far enough off, the computer could think 45* is TDC. There are 8 crank sensor falling edges per rev and one cam sensor falling edge per two revs. Without the cam edge coming before the proper crank pulse, the computer only knows the crank is at some 45* degree interval, which isn't enough information do the ignition or sequential fueling.
    Here's a little trivia. A V8 will run with a V6 dizzy set at a +22 fuel sync. Do the math.
    03 CC 4.7 NV3500

  25. #50


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    The v8 cam synch signal comes in at like 325 before TDC compression #1, there's got to be a position that works, provided you use the v8 cap lol (Dont quote me!, that is just off the top of my head)

    I honestly dont even know if the "synch" number is cam or crank degrees. I do know that ~0* synch is about 25* advanced rotor phasing. Which is pretty much universally recommended for v8 dizzy applications. Of course the rotor is lined up with the cam falling edge, that would be too easy. It's a whole mess of angles.

    MS will run so long as its not more than 45 degrees off! You'll probably have to move the plug wires though, as it will be crossfiring like a bitch. This thread made me worry about doing a cam swap if I go full standalone- no scanner to help set the synch.

    And when I cut the rotor off for for those srt-4 coil packs, I ought to mark the position the rotor used to be, so I can still use the service manual diagrams.....
    Last edited by Five9Dak; 10-27-2011 at 02:19 AM.

    '99 R/T- MSIIextra fuel/spark/idle, ZCP mx422 supercharged, ZCP Tbrake 727, PPC 10" 3800, 4.10, (\/) Headers, 2.5" Duals, Truetrac, Boyd Timeless 6's, Hotchkis TVS.
    Z Code Performance Website

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