Damn... No more nitrous for me....

[DaPurpleRT]

Well, after some friends airing some concerns, and me having some myself, on running the sauce with my forged 426 stroker, I emailed Hughes....

"We don't recommend using NOS with this kit. To accomodate the longer stroke, the pin location ends up closer to the top of the piston which reduces the ring land's thickness. This is fine for the designed use of the kit, but with NOS and extra pressure in the combustion chanber, the ring lands might suffer damage. An additional note: When pistons are built for engines with 150 shot of NOS, or supercharged, we use custom-built pistons with extra width ring lands and extra crown thickness for safety."
Let us know if there is anything else we can do for you.
Hughes Engines"


I'm kinda disappointed and kinda pissed. Disappointed that I didn't run nitrous and didn't have the technical know-how to fully foresee the nitrous issuies, and pissed that Hughes for not putting any notes in the 426 kit saying it was STRICTLY for NA motors, no juice. And on top of that not even offering you to order the nitrous or blower pistons when you purchase it.

WTF... Screw Hughes.

:bs:

[BlueCCRT]

I bet you could still run a 100 shot. It has been said that 100 shot NOS is safe with cast pistions.

[DaPurpleRT]

The pistons are forged KB units, rods forged H Beams, crank is forged..... Strength of these parts isn't the issue it appears, it's volume is the cylinders.

I even had the rings gapped for nitrous use. :( *cry*

[BTLFED R/T]

What's the CR? As aid, I think 100 shot would be fine.

[DaPurpleRT]

With my current heads, a massive 9.9:1. If I get the R/T heads I'm angling for an earth-shattering 10.3:1.

[slammedR/T]

Dude that sucks and believe me don't spray that motor over a 100 shot you WILL crack ring lands.But hey the money you were gonna spend on N2O you can use to buy my heads :D



DEPUTY

[bad360rt]

They definitely should have disclaimer on their website that it is meant for n/a use only. Dave told me the same thing when I called him.

[scatpackdal]

hughes said NOS... haha

[Typer00_0371]

i'd say you'd be fine if you run race gas and your tune is on... (both motor and jets)

[DaPurpleRT]

hughes said NOS... haha

I noticed this to, and would've giggled had I not been perturbed.


So you guys think a 100 shot will be ok?

[Typer00_0371]

I noticed this to, and would've giggled had I not been perturbed.


So you guys think a 100 shot will be ok?

you'd be fine w/ anything with the correct setup and tune..

I'd do it on my truck...

[DaPurpleRT]

Well, it's the 426 forged w/ built tranny, and the nitrous is tuned in via SCT PRP tuner.

[slammedR/T]

Some info I found from a quick google search regarding ring land spacing and nitrous pistons;

http://www.rosspistons.com/custom_ring_spacing.php

http://www.rosspistons.com/custom_about_nitrous.php

more tech articles here;
http://www.rosspistons.com/tech_info.php


DEPUTY

[Sick 660r]

They definitely should have disclaimer on their website that it is meant for n/a use only. Dave told me the same thing when I called him.

If it wasnt for you I porbably would have went with the 426 kit. Guess I'll just have to settle for a 421

Im really sorry. I know how you feel when your plans are shot down because somebody failed to tell you the details.

[DaPurpleRT]

Ah,, I'll eventually swap the pistons (I cringe thinking about the cost involved just to do this...), but might just put some turbo pistons in and throw a t88 on it. But this'll be a while off. Just wish I could feel confident building ti NA and running a 100 shot for now.

[Sick 660r]

Ah,, I'll eventually swap the pistons (I cringe thinking about the cost involved just to do this...), but might just put some turbo pistons in and throw a t88 on it. But this'll be a while off. Just wish I could feel confident building ti NA and running a 100 shot for now.

I not 100% sure but I dont think you can just swap the pistons. Im pretty sure you have to swap the crank and rods. Something about the 426 using honda size journals and there being such a limited selection of our size pistons with that size.

[DaPurpleRT]

I not 100% sure but I dont think you can just swap the pistons. Im pretty sure you have to swap the crank and rods. Something about the 426 using honda size journals and there being such a limited selection of our size pistons with that size.

Yeah, Hughes said they have to custom make such pistons.... hence my cringing at the likely cost involved.

[Sick 660r]

Yeah, Hughes said they have to custom make such pistons.... hence my cringing at the likely cost involved.

Why the hell dont they offer them then. I know I would buy the kit if they had s/c pistons as an option.

[bad360rt]

Why the hell dont they offer them then. I know I would buy the kit if they had s/c pistons as an option.

Dave said he could do custom pistons for boost or juice, but then the kit is almost $3k. I think you're better off with the setup that Ryan worked out for you. Don't sweat a few cubes. :biggthumpup:

[slvr03dakrt]

i think maybe next year i'm going to do somewhat of a budget 408 build b/c its a daily driver. cast crank, h beam rods, forged pistons, and eddy heads.Then for track use spray with a 150 shot and i'll be set.

[DaPurpleRT]

You'll be faster than my 426... lol

But yeah Dave, I'd have paid the 3k if I was only let known I needed to...

[grapejuice1998]

I noticed this to, and would've giggled had I not been perturbed.


So you guys think a 100 shot will be ok?


I think many people miss the fact that to stroke something that far in a stock block, requires you to move the end of the rod as far up into the piston as possible before pinning it in. That doesn't leave a lot of room for piston rings. That's also why aftermarket race blocks will be taller, so you can run a longer stroke and not crowd the piston rings.

The responsibility is on the buyer though. Nothing should be taken for granted. The 426 kit does exactly what it claims it'll do and nothing more.

[DaPurpleRT]

At least half the blame still lies with Hughes. Expecting every buyer to know everything about every product is bad business. If this was an all out NA ONLY kit, it should have been advertised clearly as such.

This is a very bad taste in my mouth from Hughes and I'm sure many others will cast a weary eye now as well. The only reason they wouldn't specify such an obviously important fact is fear of not selling one or two (they'll tell you after though since they already have your money).

Bad business practices is all.

[Typer00_0371]

At least half the blame still lies with Hughes. Expecting every buyer to know everything about every product is bad business. If this was an all out NA ONLY kit, it should have been advertised clearly as such.

This is a very bad taste in my mouth from Hughes and I'm sure many others will cast a weary eye now as well. The only reason they wouldn't specify such an obviously important fact is fear of not selling one or two (they'll tell you after though since they already have your money).

Bad business practices is all.

i disagree... you should have educated yourself on what you were buying from them.

[BTLFED R/T]

Was there ever a talk of using nitrous when purchasing the kit? I would think that would have been the first thing I would have brought up if I was building a motor for my truck.

"I'm wanting to build a motor and plan on using nitrous" would be my opening line. ;)

[orange00rtdakota]

hey guys im seriously confused here are you guys saying you can run the 426 on all motor as long as you dont spray. Because i plan on doing an all motor build on mine with no spray or boost or nothing and i wanna get the most cubes i can get. Sorry to thread jack but if i can keep from getting screwed over i would greatly appreciate it. Thaks Brad

[Typer00_0371]

hey guys im seriously confused here are you guys saying you can run the 426 on all motor as long as you dont spray. Because i plan on doing an all motor build on mine with no spray or boost or nothing and i wanna get the most cubes i can get. Sorry to thread jack but if i can keep from getting screwed over i would greatly appreciate it. Thaks Brad

educate yourself with what you want and what your goals are and relay that to your engine builder. between your goals and intended use of the engine combo, and "real world" applications with the engine builder you can do anything you want to.

[DaPurpleRT]

I think many people miss the fact that to stroke something that far in a stock block, requires you to move the end of the rod as far up into the piston as possible before pinning it in. That doesn't leave a lot of room for piston rings. That's also why aftermarket race blocks will be taller, so you can run a longer stroke and not crowd the piston rings.

The responsibility is on the buyer though. Nothing should be taken for granted. The 426 kit does exactly what it claims it'll do and nothing more.

i disagree... you should have educated yourself on what you were buying from them.

They were just the supplier. My engine builder is the top Mopar guru in the area. He setup the ring gaps for nitrous use and didn't seem to see an issue with nitrous up to a 150 shot.


As a supplier, it is prudent for Hughes to provide all relevant info on their products - this should definately include putting that a high hp product is only viable for 1/4 of the most common high hp applications, and that being the least popular overall (NA).

It would be in bold letters on the ad if it was my company, but I guess I just care more about the customer getting what they actually want/need than do Hughes. Again, just bad business.

Reminds of them exclaiming the superiority of their Airgap manifold over M1s with little or no viable proof (of course this all occurred after I purchased my kit). They seem to ONLY be concern with making the sale (an important factor for a business, no doubt, but definately not the only one).

They've simply moved into my "shady" category along with companies like GSM (OK, GSM is pure darkness, but still).

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

Sorry for your trouble. But now I know better when I order my kit. I'll gladly pop the money for the custom pistons

[DaPurpleRT]

Does make me feel better that it'll save somebody else a little headache and a whole lotta coin.

On the original topic - What's your opinions on a tuned in 100 shot on this engine? Still too risky?

I sure don't want to blow it, but tuned in.... 100rwhp and ~150rwtq extra would satisfy me I think.

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

I wouldn't, but then I'm not very brave either. You spent so much time and all, why risk it.

[DaPurpleRT]

If I remove the spray, I'm looking at adding a 3500-4k stall, 4.56s gears, 4bbl m1, bigger ported r/t heads, spintech headers with true dual 3" mandrel bent exhaust, and possibly a bigger cam (current at 230/236). I would hope getting that all on and having it it dyno tuned would net me an 11....

[Trueblue R/T]

They were just the supplier. My engine builder is the top Mopar guru in the area. He setup the ring gaps for nitrous use and didn't seem to see an issue with nitrous up to a 150 shot.


As a supplier, it is prudent for Hughes to provide all relevant info on their products - this should definately include putting that a high hp product is only viable for 1/4 of the most common high hp applications, and that being the least popular overall (NA).

It would be in bold letters on the ad if it was my company, but I guess I just care more about the customer getting what they actually want/need than do Hughes. Again, just bad business.

Reminds of them exclaiming the superiority of their Airgap manifold over M1s with little or no viable proof (of course this all occurred after I purchased my kit). They seem to ONLY be concern with making the sale (an important factor for a business, no doubt, but definately not the only one).

They've simply moved into my "shady" category along with companies like GSM (OK, GSM is pure darkness, but still).

The builder is the one you ought to be talking to not us.. Even though I am suprised that he didn't say anything about the KB pistons.. not a company known for their high quality forgings.A good set of pistons will cost you somewhere between 800.00 & 1200.00..You can order the pistons with the pin hole not even drilled and your builder can put the hole where he wants it including a shorter pi that sits behind the rings..Personally I think you will be fine on a 150 shot.. there are a lot of people on this very list that have run a 150 shot on a stock bottom end and the motor has lived to run another day..Now get out there and race that thing and quit worring so much..

[DaPurpleRT]

I think I'm gonna put a 100 shot on it. I VERY rarely even run the stuff (probably 1 few times a year) as the track is a 2 hr trip each way and I'm uneasy w/o a trailer (when it died there last Spring the two bill was 250 bucks back home) and on 20" street tires the nitrous makes it a lil bitchy on the streets unless I throw ET Streets or such on.

BTW, just because we had a political disagreement I don't think any less of you Barry or dislike you in any way, and I hope sincerely you feel the same. If everybody thought the same, we'd all be done for along with the country - because nobody is ALWAYS right!

[grapejuice1998]

Seems to me like you asked the right questions and they gave the right answers, but you just didn't ask them before you bought into the kt. Hughes isn't claravoyant and not everyone will want to run a power adder, especially on a big cube small block. Now you know.

Utimatley, it's your truck, your motor and your money. That means it's up to you to do the proper research before you jump in. Lesson learned (hopefully).

I'm not trying to be mean to you either, I'm just shooting straight with you, instead of feeling sorry for you.

At least half the blame still lies with Hughes. Expecting every buyer to know everything about every product is bad business. If this was an all out NA ONLY kit, it should have been advertised clearly as such.

This is a very bad taste in my mouth from Hughes and I'm sure many others will cast a weary eye now as well. The only reason they wouldn't specify such an obviously important fact is fear of not selling one or two (they'll tell you after though since they already have your money).

Bad business practices is all.

[grapejuice1998]

i disagree... you should have educated yourself on what you were buying from them.

That is precisely my point. Ryan only thought to ask about nitrous after he was warned against it by others. Had he asked before he bought the 426 kit, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

"Buyer Beware" goes back in time so far, they even have a phrase in Latin for it.

"Caveat Emptor"

[grapejuice1998]

[QUOTE=DaPurpleRT;7955]I think I'm gonna put a 100 shot on it.

So, if you break it, knowing you're not supposed to run nitrous on it, isn't that going to make you blame Hughes even more?

Seems to me, a well built, well tuned 426, should run well enough to not even need nitrous. Put a badass set of heads and a big fat cam in it and be done with it.

[orange00rtdakota]

well i now know what route i am going with my motor i thnk i will stick to the 408 and go with a procharger set-up now i orginally was gonna go with the 426 on all motor but that will leave me no room for anything else and plus i just found a really nice procharger set-up. Do any of your guys have any pros and cons on this type of set-up figure i'll learn from everyone elses mis fortunes and i'll ask a whole bunch of questions first. Thanks Brad

[Trueblue R/T]

I think I'm gonna put a 100 shot on it. I VERY rarely even run the stuff (probably 1 few times a year) as the track is a 2 hr trip each way and I'm uneasy w/o a trailer (when it died there last Spring the two bill was 250 bucks back home) and on 20" street tires the nitrous makes it a lil bitchy on the streets unless I throw ET Streets or such on.

BTW, just because we had a political disagreement I don't think any less of you Barry or dislike you in any way, and I hope sincerely you feel the same. If everybody thought the same, we'd all be done for along with the country - because nobody is ALWAYS right!


LOL if i held a dissagreement against you,, we wouldn't of said two words since you were 16 buddy..

[mtlcafan79]

I think I'm gonna put a 100 shot on it.

It's your motor dude. Aren't you the guy that let someone else drive their truck on a 150 shot with it detonating and rattling the entire 1320'? Remember how that one turned out?

[mtlcafan79]

Seems to me, a well built, well tuned 426, should run well enough to not even need nitrous. Put a badass set of heads and a big fat cam in it and be done with it.

Yep. Josh ran what, 11.1@117 on his n/a 360? A proper 426 should be smokin.

[DaPurpleRT]

Hmm. May have found a stall already. Might leave it NA for a year or so....

Would 4k stall be too much to drive it on the street/through town and such?

[bad360rt]

i think maybe next year i'm going to do somewhat of a budget 408 build b/c its a daily driver. cast crank, h beam rods, forged pistons, and eddy heads.Then for track use spray with a 150 shot and i'll be set.

I'd save up a lil more and get the forged crank, then you don't have to worry about it later on should you decide you want to spray more than 150.

[bad360rt]

well i now know what route i am going with my motor i thnk i will stick to the 408 and go with a procharger set-up now i orginally was gonna go with the 426 on all motor but that will leave me no room for anything else and plus i just found a really nice procharger set-up. Do any of your guys have any pros and cons on this type of set-up figure i'll learn from everyone elses mis fortunes and i'll ask a whole bunch of questions first. Thanks Brad

Which Procharger are you looking at? And how much power are you looking to make? I'd go minimum D-1 on a 408, F-1 would be better. KJ didn't have much luck with a P-1 on his 408, I think it ran out of steam at around 450rwhp. Need a head unit that can push some serious air when you're putting it on a stroker :biggthumpup:

[bad360rt]

Hmm. May have found a stall already. Might leave it NA for a year or so....

Would 4k stall be too much to drive it on the street/through town and such?

Stall speed should depend on your cam choice, more specifically where your peak torque is, which will depend on cam choice. If I were you, I'd go with a big cam, good heads, converter/gears, get it tuned in with the SCT and have a badass 11sec n/a truck. Lloyd is running 11.7's with his CC with a 408, ShadyDell heads and a 245 cam.

You shouldn't have any problems on the street with a quality stall, even at 4k.

[bad360rt]

Yep. Josh ran what, 11.1@117 on his n/a 360? A proper 426 should be smokin.

11.5, and with a 904, but I agree, a properly setup 426 should be able to run 11's n/a. :biggthumpup:

[grapejuice1998]

Hmm. May have found a stall already. Might leave it NA for a year or so....

Would 4k stall be too much to drive it on the street/through town and such?

It'll be a lot, but if you cam up, you'll need a lot. Either way, the lockup will make it driveable.

[DaPurpleRT]

Kinda OT, but Alan, was it you who had sent his tails off to get tinted to the same fella I did? If so, do you have his email addy? Sent them out back in June, still don't have them back. :(

Posted a thread on delphi but he didn't respond.

[KicknAsphlt]

Ryan, that was actually Jody that had his tails tinted.

[grapejuice1998]

Kinda OT, but Alan, was it you who had sent his tails off to get tinted to the same fella I did? If so, do you have his email addy? Sent them out back in June, still don't have them back. :(

Posted a thread on delphi but he didn't respond.


Nope, it wasn't me.

[DaPurpleRT]

Hey Dave and Ed. Here they are.... those numbers look small... :eek:

Piston-to wall clearance==.004"

Spacing from top of piston to the top ring==.186"

[White Turbo]

Hey Dave and Ed. Here they are.... those numbers look small... :eek:

Piston-to wall clearance==.004"

Spacing from top of piston to the top ring==.186"

What brand of piston are you using?

[DaPurpleRT]

They are Keith Black forged units.

[White Turbo]

Danno says your ok for a 100 shot.

P/W clearance looks adequate. Personally I'd like to see the ringland a little thicker, but I think you can do a 100 shot.

Check with your ring manufacturer for their specs on top and 2nd ring end gap for N02.

[DaPurpleRT]

OK, they're, crap, what's the name, has a lil lightning bolt on the box - Sealed Power?? Anyone?

Also, the engine builder did somethin about ring gap when he assembled the motor to make it more likeable to nitrous but I don't remember what it was (I feel dumb, lol).

Thanks Ed, and Danno.

[White Turbo]

OK, they're, crap, what's the name, has a lil lightning bolt on the box - Sealed Power?? Anyone?

Also, the engine builder did somethin about ring gap when he assembled the motor to make it more likeable to nitrous but I don't remember what it was (I feel dumb, lol).

Thanks Ed, and Danno.

What's your cylinder bore?

[DaPurpleRT]

.030 over.

[White Turbo]

.030 over.

Yeah your builder probly widened the ring end gap for nitrous

I run Akerly & Childs rings...

They spec. a top ring end gap of .0234" for your bore for EVERY 100 HP SHOT of N02.

2nd ring spec. is .0274" for your bore for EVERY 100 HP SHOT of N02.

(Danno: I was reading A&C's specs wrong on the phone,, does this sound right?)

[DaPurpleRT]

Yes, thats what he did, not sure on the brand though. He speced them for a 150 shot.

[DaPurpleRT]

So I called my engine builder, he knew as soon as I mentioned nitrous and pistons the issue we are talking about. He said there is NO issue with anything 150 and below, and my planned 100-125 should have zero problems. He says it's 200+ where it'll cause the ring to seperate from the top of the piston.

Also gonna port match my 4bbl M1 for 100 bucks when I get it in. That a pretty good price?

He's the best in several states. Built tons of 408s and even a few 42xs but all but 1 or 2 were LA (mostly race cars and muscle cars). He knew everything about the kit and Hughes when I came to his shop though, and that impressed me greatly (most shops cant tell you a damn thing about a stock Mopar engine without looking it up).

[Trueblue R/T]

What did I tell you buddy..Glad you listened to me about contacting your builder..

[DaPurpleRT]

I defer to those more knowledgeable than me (except when it come to those more knowledgeable who stand to make more money off me, ala Hughes). :)

[White Turbo]

So I called my engine builder, he knew as soon as I mentioned nitrous and pistons the issue we are talking about. He said there is NO issue with anything 150 and below, and my planned 100-125 should have zero problems. He says it's 200+ where it'll cause the ring to seperate from the top of the piston.

Also gonna port match my 4bbl M1 for 100 bucks when I get it in. That a pretty good price?

He's the best in several states. Built tons of 408s and even a few 42xs but all but 1 or 2 were LA (mostly race cars and muscle cars). He knew everything about the kit and Hughes when I came to his shop though, and that impressed me greatly (most shops cant tell you a damn thing about a stock Mopar engine without looking it up).

Sounds like your builder is a true Mopar guy;)
So are you gonna go ahead and hit the 100 shot?? Or sell your kit??

Yeah I won't anything bad about Hughes..... But.... Well... I don't like bashing companies, so I won't say anything. They DO sell SOME good stuff though. I have their flexplate on my truck and like it.

[DaPurpleRT]

Putting a 100/125 to it.

[99BarneyRT]

OK, they're, crap, what's the name, has a lil lightning bolt on the box - Sealed Power?? Anyone?

Also, the engine builder did somethin about ring gap when he assembled the motor to make it more likeable to nitrous but I don't remember what it was (I feel dumb, lol).

Thanks Ed, and Danno.


Ryan, the piston is called SpeedPro, made by Federal Mongul. These are the standard Mopar pistons on the performance shortblocks, not the built ones. My replacement 5.9 .020 over shortblock uses these pistons.
http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/AftermarketSolutions/NorthAmerica/EngineSolutions/Products/Pistons/Speed-ProPistons/

Hope that helps.

[DaPurpleRT]

Actually I was talking about piston rings. The pistons in the kit are custom KB units. Thanks for the info though bro.

[99BarneyRT]

Actually I was talking about piston rings. The pistons in the kit are custom KB units. Thanks for the info though bro.

My bad :)

[DaPurpleRT]

It's no problem, I appreciate it seriously you went through the time finding the link and such!

[rattler360]

K1 Technologies Actually Makes The Hughes Kit, I Had Done Research On It.

[bad360rt]

K1 Technologies Actually Makes The Hughes Kit, I Had Done Research On It.

K1 makes some nice stuff, from what Ryan and others have told me their quality is a little better than Eagle, for about the same price.

[rattler360]

i spoke to the owner, it reall good quality its designed here but built over seas

[bad360rt]

i spoke to the owner, it reall good quality its designed here but built over seas

I believe the finishing work is also done here.

[rattler360]

thats what i was told yes, i might be carrying their products, i have a part time parts business

[DaPurpleRT]

K1 makes the rods and crank, but the pistons are KB units.