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View Full Version : SB vs BB vs Gen3 Hemi



dakfink
11-02-2012, 01:11 PM
I've been looking at all 3 engines lately. With the Idea of using MS3 and having to build another Motor for my Red Dak I was weighing the options of building each of these engines.

Thought I'd throw it out there and see what you guys can come up with for best Bang for the buck. "$$$$ to HP ratio". Only restriction has to be based around Stock Block (aftermarket substitute OK) and Heads that can be used/bolted in place of stock heads. That leaves stuff like P7 and Predator Heads out!!

Also don't forget to figure in needed upgrades for issues that have to be resolved with which ever route you think is best. IE:Oiling Issues with Small Blocks at High Rpms, Crank/Rod Oiling issues with Gen3 Hemis at high RPMs, and whatever with Big Blocks.

Also price sources would be nice as well if you quote a price.

I've got an Idea of my own that I'll throw out after I see a few of yours.

Duner
11-02-2012, 01:26 PM
How much power are you hoping to make?

The head flow numbers on the late model Hemis is what's sparked my interest. Well that, and the numbers of over 1k hp examples that are beginning to crop up. All with factory blocks and heads - but forged rotating assemblies.

Five9Dak
11-02-2012, 01:40 PM
Heads for the new hemis are sick. Combine that with some boost and you've got an excellent recipe.

Duner
11-02-2012, 01:49 PM
Heads for the new hemis are sick. Combine that with some boost and you've got an excellent recipe.

A head that flows 385cfm with 15 psi of boost is 1500hp. I like that number.

skunkxracing
11-02-2012, 02:06 PM
There is just so much potential in a hemi compared to a small block. Big block weighs too much and as the examples done before show it leaves you with little underhood room. A turbo could fit nicely right next to the hemi.

Unknown_element
11-02-2012, 02:07 PM
Im building a hemi now for my ram daily driver, after building the 408, id have to go with the hemi.

dakfink
11-02-2012, 02:29 PM
all that sounds fine and dandy until you read up on how many of the Hemis have kicked a rod even with forged bottom ends. 1 recently was a dirty track motor, so no power adders.

Apparently they don't do so well over 6800+rpms. The 3&4 rods starve for oil. BUT supposedly Ray Barton knows how to fix that issue and in keeping with his Legend you will pay PREMIUM for any thing he does. $23,995 for a Drag Pak 6.1L or $14,995 if you send him your engine.

The Numbers sound great for stock pieces, BUT addressing the issues and the cost for acquiring said pieces. I'm not sure it's such a good deal. BUT I could be wrong.

dakfink
11-02-2012, 02:33 PM
How much power are you hoping to make?

The head flow numbers on the late model Hemis is what's sparked my interest. Well that, and the numbers of over 1k hp examples that are beginning to crop up. All with factory blocks and heads - but forged rotating assemblies.

Most for the $$$$.

I keep hearing Hemis BUT I have a set of heads that flow in excess of 400cfm and a second similar set that a Moparts Member is working on his own port design and so far seems to be able to maybe match the others I have.

With the price of Forged Bottom ends these days it's kind of hard to look away from a Small Block with said Heads. My only issue!! I want to keep A/C and PowerSteering which I can't do with these particular heads.

Duner
11-02-2012, 02:35 PM
all that sounds fine and dandy until you read up on how many of the Hemis have kicked a rod even with forged bottom ends. 1 recently was a dirty track motor, so no power adders.

Apparently they don't do so well over 6800+rpms. The 3&4 rods starve for oil. BUT supposedly Ray Barton knows how to fix that issue and in keeping with his Legend you will pay PREMIUM for any thing he does. $23,995 for a Drag Pak 6.1L or $14,995 if you send him your engine.

The Numbers sound great for stock pieces, BUT addressing the issues and the cost for acquiring said pieces. I'm not sure it's such a good deal. BUT I could be wrong.

Sounds too easy to me. With a turbo - you don't need a big high-revving cam to make the power. Keep the rpms down in the 6000 - 6500 range and let it eat.

Or.... Tell us what you have in mind.

Danno
11-02-2012, 02:36 PM
I have been toying with the idea of a Gen3 hemi for awhile now. Mainly because of ease of modding/tuning and parts availability.

IMO if Barton knows the trick to keeping the rods from starving, then it will come out eventually, so a little patience will fix that ;)

Danno

dakfink
11-02-2012, 02:42 PM
One example:

Big Block : Pump Gas 505" Stroker with Indy EZ heads. 700hp @ $11,399 Intake to Oil pan

$16.28/hp

I'll run the numbers for my SB Idea when I go back to my room!

Five9Dak
11-02-2012, 02:43 PM
Just shift it at 6500, you can cram plenty of CFM down it's throat with those heads, boost and 6500 rpm.

For the big block, you need a race block right out of the gate. They aren't much stronger than small blocks.

dakfink
11-02-2012, 02:46 PM
I have been toying with the idea of a Gen3 hemi for awhile now. Mainly because of ease of modding/tuning and parts availability.

IMO if Barton knows the trick to keeping the rods from starving, then it will come out eventually, so a little patience will fix that ;)

Danno

Yeah I know!!

Supposedly he's not the only one that has figured it out but they are all keeping under the vest.

I know Ray's Brother pissed off a lot of people in the class that he runs with his Challenger the beginning of this season. Came of the trailer running 1.5 seconds under the current index. You know what that means!!! ReIndex and/or Reclass for the Hemi Challengers.

dakfink
11-02-2012, 02:50 PM
Just shift it at 6500, you can cram plenty of CFM down it's throat with those heads, boost and 6500 rpm.

For the big block, you need a race block right out of the gate. They aren't much stronger than small blocks.

Was figuring on that, and their aftermarket blocks are actually cheaper than an R3. $2935 for a Siamese block from Indy. As long as you stay with the stock spacing and bolt pattern blocks.

dakfink
11-02-2012, 02:58 PM
Sounds too easy to me. With a turbo - you don't need a big high-revving cam to make the power. Keep the rpms down in the 6000 - 6500 range and let it eat.

Or.... Tell us what you have in mind.

I was leaving Boost off the equation because we both know it cost pretty much the same no matter the engine it goes on to build the same kind of Turbo system. Single or Twins.

I actually have 2 Ideas for small block. 1 because someone just came out with a Good set of heads reasonably priced and 2 I have parts setting around that may never get used any other way.

I got to finish my laundry; then I'll run some numbers and see what else I can come up with.

dakfink
11-02-2012, 03:41 PM
Small Block Idea 1 : is
R3 Block $2279
W9 Heads $900 have these on the shelf (probably $2000 to finish)
Rockers $1300
Intake $450 (I have this as well)
BPE Forged Stroker kit $2350
Lifters $600

Second Small Block would be the same as above BUT with:
Airwolf heads $2700
Rockers maybe $1000 (la style)
Possibly stay with a Factory Block

I kind of was considering Indy 360's but at $6000 complete. Damn. I got W9s that I can get finished a bit cheaper.

dakfink
11-02-2012, 03:49 PM
I have been toying with the idea of a Gen3 hemi for awhile now. Mainly because of ease of modding/tuning and parts availability.

IMO if Barton knows the trick to keeping the rods from starving, then it will come out eventually, so a little patience will fix that ;)

Danno

Have you seen prices on them?

I hope Bits & Pieces are significantly cheaper than the shops are charging for finished set ups.

Usually you can save $1000-2000 by doing a build yourself.

BUT at $14000 for the average 440-Hemi Stroke with a $2500 core charge. $16500. There better be well more than $2000 to be saved doing it yourself.

$$$ to HP just isn't there. At least not that I can find.

You'd think they were a lot cheaper than that because the Blocks and Heads from Mopar aren't expensive and stuff like Cranks, rods, pistons, valves and springs are pretty much the same price across most engines.

Where I've seen some places get you in the shorts is if you want the accessories. They want a Premium for the Mounts and accessories.

Duner
11-02-2012, 03:59 PM
Have you seen prices on them?

I hope Bits & Pieces are significantly cheaper than the shops are charging for finished set ups.

Usually you can save $1000-2000 by doing a build yourself.

BUT at $14000 for the average 440-Hemi Stroke with a $2500 core charge. $16500. There better be well more than $2000 to be saved doing it yourself.

$$$ to HP just isn't there. At least not that I can find.

You'd think they were a lot cheaper than that because the Blocks and Heads from Mopar aren't expensive and stuff like Cranks, rods, pistons, valves and springs are pretty much the same price across most engines.

Where I've seen some places get you in the shorts is if you want the accessories. They want a Premium for the Mounts and accessories.

I guess I misunderstood. I was looking at it from the perspective of buying parts, doing machine work and building it myself. I never considered just buying a complete turnkey engine - I guess because that's completely out of my "range" of options. The prices of those things are simply beyond my scope of thought.

dakfink
11-02-2012, 04:45 PM
I guess I misunderstood. I was looking at it from the perspective of buying parts, doing machine work and building it myself. I never considered just buying a complete turnkey engine - I guess because that's completely out of my "range" of options. The prices of those things are simply beyond my scope of thought.

I was looking at it from the same perspective as you BUT every engine I have seen priced Complete you can usually only save $1000-2000 maybe 3000 by sourcing and doing it yourself even having to take it somewhere to do the Machine work.

But at those prices there would have to be A LOT more of savings in doing it yourself to make it feasible.

I used completed engines because I would have to search several sites to find Bits & Pieces prices and probably take a while to find some good P&P head prices.

Was easier to take a completed engine and assume a few grand off to do it yourself.

Danno
11-02-2012, 04:47 PM
Go Gen3 hemi and sell me your W9 stuffs :P

TBH, if you want to go turnkey, go with Gen2 Hemi and be done with it. Not much more $$ than the Gen3 stuff, and you can do most of the work on it later yourself. PLUS you can make HUGE power with them. I have always had a pipedream of doing a wet KB alky motor at about 600" with two turbos.... push it to 2500 hp RELIABLY...

But thats my pipedream :P

Danno

BluRT00
11-02-2012, 09:08 PM
Damn how much power you wanting to run?

dakfink
11-03-2012, 03:03 AM
Damn how much power you wanting to run?

As much as I can get off of E-85 and about 14lbs of boost!!

dakfink
11-03-2012, 03:05 AM
Go Gen3 hemi and sell me your W9 stuffs :P

TBH, if you want to go turnkey, go with Gen2 Hemi and be done with it. Not much more $$ than the Gen3 stuff, and you can do most of the work on it later yourself. PLUS you can make HUGE power with them. I have always had a pipedream of doing a wet KB alky motor at about 600" with two turbos.... push it to 2500 hp RELIABLY...

But thats my pipedream :P

Danno

Yeah I was thinking Gen2 as well. BUT they get pricey FAST!!

I'll probably stay with the Small Block after all. I can get the bottom end and good heads for less than $5000 and I have everything else.

RobbyD
11-03-2012, 11:00 AM
You need to do some more research on GEN 3 HEMI's.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/f289/promod-94mm-turbo-hood-exit-exhaust-system-321803/#post4240444

dakfink
11-03-2012, 01:54 PM
You need to do some more research on GEN 3 HEMI's.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/f289/promod-94mm-turbo-hood-exit-exhaust-system-321803/#post4240444

I see about $35000 worth at least.

As stated at the very beginning. Bang for the Buck!!

I could build another W9 Motor cheaper if I was going to go back into that realm of money and performance.

Or even better a Big Block that makes 1300hp on pump gas for about $27000.

Now if someone would sell Hemi parts at reasonable prices, and there were a Bolt on turbo kit for $5500 or less then we might have something.

I'm not against a Hemi by any means. Just against all the prices I am seeing to build one.

I just ran the numbers again last night for a Small Block 436 cui.

Reuse block. $500 Machine work
Airwolf heads $2700
BPE Stroker Kit $2350
PIE Turbo Kit $5500
Miscellaneous $1000
Total $11550

and should be capable of 800hp so Bang for the Buck = $14.44 / hp

Without boost should be about 600hp = $10.08 / hp

RobbyD
11-03-2012, 02:19 PM
Gen 3 440 Stroker

http://pwrparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=42_35&products_id=8
6.4 heads.
http://pwrparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=39&products_id=108

Now run 10's.


You wanna play, you gotta pay...

dakfink
11-03-2012, 04:40 PM
Gen 3 440 Stroker

http://pwrparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=42_35&products_id=8
6.4 heads.
http://pwrparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=39&products_id=108

Now run 10's.


You wanna play, you gotta pay...

Now those prices I could live with. Not bad at all. I'm going to look through there and see if I can find accessories as well. (A/C, PowerSteering, Alt, etc)

The other prices I was finding on other sites I could have built an R3-W9 motor for less and ran circles around them.

RobbyD
11-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Ya, you're looking in all the wrong places

wyotech_cuda440
11-03-2012, 05:14 PM
You've said "bang for the buck" a couple times, but you've never said how much bang you're looking for.

Big block power is the cheapest up to a certain level, then other options become cheaper.

You can build a reliable 500" big block with a stock 440 block, decent quality stroker kit, main girdle and half fill, and an Indy 440-1 cnc top end kit- that can make 700hp on pump gas for about $8k.

dakfink
11-03-2012, 05:21 PM
Ya, you're looking in all the wrong places

Obviously huh?

You know if anyone is by chance making adapter parts/pieces for putting Hemis in Dakotas?

I don't get/have much time at home to fab/ build stuff for myself on that level.

dakfink
11-03-2012, 05:29 PM
You've said "bang for the buck" a couple times, but you've never said how much bang you're looking for.

Big block power is the cheapest up to a certain level, then other options become cheaper.

You can build a reliable 500" big block with a stock 440 block, decent quality stroker kit, main girdle and half fill, and an Indy 440-1 cnc top end kit- that can make 700hp on pump gas for about $8k.

As much as possible for as little as possible. Yeah BIG blocks are hard to beat.

700+hp on Pump Gas and not turning 7000+rpms wearing out the valve train.

Just about every option has a decent return for a decent price.

Guess my final decision will probably lie on the ease of getting it in the hole and having A/C and Power steering.

PacManRT
11-03-2012, 05:37 PM
If you look around on dak-dur there are quite a few people doing hemi swaps. From what I see its almost a bolt-in deal with a 4.7 dakota

dakfink
11-03-2012, 07:07 PM
If you look around on dak-dur there are quite a few people doing hemi swaps. From what I see its almost a bolt-in deal with a 4.7 dakota

Yeah I've looked and followed a few of those. I don't have a 4.7 Dak.

I have an R/T and the ones I saw for those they have to modify the oil pan and make motor mounts and notch the cross brace. IIRC.

dakfink
11-03-2012, 07:19 PM
Go Gen3 hemi and sell me your W9 stuffs :P

TBH, if you want to go turnkey, go with Gen2 Hemi and be done with it. Not much more $$ than the Gen3 stuff, and you can do most of the work on it later yourself. PLUS you can make HUGE power with them. I have always had a pipedream of doing a wet KB alky motor at about 600" with two turbos.... push it to 2500 hp RELIABLY...

But thats my pipedream :P

Danno

Just pulled up some videos of plan old 426s and DAMN those things make me drewl every time I hear them.

Makes you weak in the knees. LOL!!!

Wonder if one of Schumachers Big Block Dakota conversion motor mounts would work on it?

After I did a search there are actually quite a few Dakota in our body style with Gen2 Hemis. Some even as race trucks.

Pat Storey of SMR Transmissions for 1. Running mid 9's all motor. Just saying LOL

PacManRT
11-04-2012, 01:55 AM
Yeah I've looked and followed a few of those. I don't have a 4.7 Dak.

I have an R/T and the ones I saw for those they have to modify the oil pan and make motor mounts and notch the cross brace. IIRC.

I think the biggest pain is the transmission and wiring differences between 5.9 and 4.7 trucks. A buddy just totaled his r/t and bought a blown up sport to swap everything over, by the time we were done we had to swap everything including the dash harness and cluster because its all different between ngc and jtec trucks.

360 XRT
11-05-2012, 02:00 AM
what about a 451 stroker [400 big block]. there are many of these at the strip,and i do believe they are very reasonable to build. anyone running a 451 swears by them !

wyotech_cuda440
11-05-2012, 02:11 AM
what about a 451 stroker [400 big block]. there are many of these at the strip,and i do believe they are very reasonable to build. anyone running a 451 swears by them !

That's also a great low cost engine for a good amount of power- but only to a certain extent.

With a big block, you can make up to 800hp cheaper than any other alternative. My old 440 was a .030" bore factory block, factory crank and rods, 13.5:1 forged pistons, ported factory 906 heads, and a big roller cam. It could probably be built for less than 5k, it made 702hp, and lasted 8 seasons.

You would need to spend more money on better heads and stroker kits to make that power on pump gas, but it's still affordable.

Once you say you want 1000hp, you would need an aftermarket block and most likely a power adder or some very expensive heads. At that point, the 3rd gen hemi would be the most cost effective to build.

Now if you wanted 2500hp, then the 2nd gen hemi would be the best way to go about it.

It all depends on your goals. Set a goal, make a plan, make it happen- in that order.

RobbyD
11-05-2012, 04:14 AM
You need to do some more research on GEN 3 HEMI's.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/f289/promod-94mm-turbo-hood-exit-exhaust-system-321803/#post4240444

Harrison made 1,129 rear wheel horse pah 935 ft lbs of tq.

dakfink
11-05-2012, 08:46 AM
Harrison made 1,129 rear wheel horse pah 935 ft lbs of tq.

How much did it cost him to get to that?

RobbyD
11-05-2012, 11:54 AM
How much did it cost him to get to that?

I don't know. I don't ask stuff like that. If you have to ask you can't afford it. :nono:

dakfink
11-05-2012, 01:07 PM
I don't know. I don't ask stuff like that. If you have to ask you can't afford it. :nono:

I know in a Big Block it can be done for less than $25k. Complete and running.

Danno
11-05-2012, 04:36 PM
Just pulled up some videos of plan old 426s and DAMN those things make me drewl every time I hear them.

Makes you weak in the knees. LOL!!!

Wonder if one of Schumachers Big Block Dakota conversion motor mounts would work on it?

After I did a search there are actually quite a few Dakota in our body style with Gen2 Hemis. Some even as race trucks.

Pat Storey of SMR Transmissions for 1. Running mid 9's all motor. Just saying LOL.

Yup, the Gen2 Hemis have a unique sound to them. I have always wanted to do a Gen2 style Hemi personally.

YES, the Schumacher stuff will work with the new MP block, because they use regular BB motor mount tabs. The factory 64-71 Hemi blocks will NOT work, as they use a different mounting arrangement. I think that the Megablock also used the BB style mounting tabs.

DOOOOOOOO ITTTTTTTTTTT Alum megablock, 600+" and twin turbos... let me live vicariously through this one :)

Danno

Five9Dak
11-05-2012, 05:46 PM
20-30k for new complete engine setups? The way the economy is right now you can score killer deals. 5-10k for longblocks with 10-20k in parts value in them. Nows the time to buy used.

dakfink
11-06-2012, 09:16 AM
.

Yup, the Gen2 Hemis have a unique sound to them. I have always wanted to do a Gen2 style Hemi personally.

YES, the Schumacher stuff will work with the new MP block, because they use regular BB motor mount tabs. The factory 64-71 Hemi blocks will NOT work, as they use a different mounting arrangement. I think that the Megablock also used the BB style mounting tabs.

DOOOOOOOO ITTTTTTTTTTT Alum megablock, 600+" and twin turbos... let me live vicariously through this one :)

Danno

600" and a good set of heads. Who needs (who can handle) Turbos!!!

I'd want to keep it Pump gas and driveable.

BUT yes an Aluminum block would be a MUST. Damn things earned the name Elephant Honestly.

Danno
11-06-2012, 02:48 PM
600" and a good set of heads. Who needs (who can handle) Turbos!!!

I'd want to keep it Pump gas and driveable.

BUT yes an Aluminum block would be a MUST. Damn things earned the name Elephant Honestly.


The weight was mostly from the factory iron heads. Have you ever picked up an original Hemi head? OMG..... I think my 360 mag block weighs less. Seriously. The Hemi blocks were essentially identical to the 440 block. A few differences in machining and web thickness in the mains, but thats about it.

Danno

dakfink
11-06-2012, 05:30 PM
The weight was mostly from the factory iron heads. Have you ever picked up an original Hemi head? OMG..... I think my 360 mag block weighs less. Seriously. The Hemi blocks were essentially identical to the 440 block. A few differences in machining and web thickness in the mains, but thats about it.

Danno

Luckily StageV makes a Stock Looking replacement Aluminum head.

Lil Bit of rattle can and no one would know the difference.

Do you know of any Hemi Builders/Suppliers that don't think they hold the Keys to Hemi-Gold!!

I found Arruza High Performance. They seem to be reasonable.

69rrbruce
11-20-2012, 03:04 AM
Obviously I'm a fan of the Gen 3 hemi and it's power potential, however you have to consider the extra cost to swap into a Dakota....The Gen 2 hemi problem is the size & weight on the front of a Dakota, it's power potential is unmatched. I'm also a fan of the BBM, I have a one in my 23 Ford Roadster, cubic inches are hard to beat, but again it's heavy. The SBM is probably the best fit for the Dakota and I've always wanted a six pack version like the 70 Cuda.
I have to laugh every time you mention the need to maintain AC & power steering considering all the high $$ racing parts that are being mentioned.

dakfink
11-20-2012, 01:19 PM
Obviously I'm a fan of the Gen 3 hemi and it's power potential, however you have to consider the extra cost to swap into a Dakota....The Gen 2 hemi problem is the size & weight on the front of a Dakota, it's power potential is unmatched. I'm also a fan of the BBM, I have a one in my 23 Ford Roadster, cubic inches are hard to beat, but again it's heavy. The SBM is probably the best fit for the Dakota and I've always wanted a six pack version like the 70 Cuda.
I have to laugh every time you mention the need to maintain AC & power steering considering all the high $$ racing parts that are being mentioned.


Ever rode around in the summer in Texas!!! A/C is a must if you spend more than 30mins at a time in a vehicle.

Powersteering: with 10-12 wide tires all the way around pretty much mandatory as well.

Those that know me know I have 1 Drag Dak in the works I don't need a second. But a Hot Ride would be nice.