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dakfink
07-18-2012, 02:40 AM
This thread is a flow over form a Wring Discussion started in the MS3 thread.

I stated that Solder Splicing is not the BEST or Prefered method of splicing wires.

Some seamed they wanted to argue and knew more than I do on the subject even though it has been my expertise and how I have made my living for the last 17+yrs.

For those that tried the The Navy-Air Force or Even Army does it this way. Well Here is there Manual?

http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-1-1500-323-24-1.pdf

That all 5 Branches use. Yes including the Coast Guard.

In reading NOTICE that SAE is mentioned more than a few times.

With that said Navy and SAE wrote the standards even for Aviation. This is what we follow.

Also Notice that there is a procedure on how to do every acceptable splice or solder action. BUT there is no such procedure for solder splicing

Will soldering work? Yes? IS it Better than Butt Splicing NO!!
Save yourself the headache and time if you have access to the proper supplies and tools and do it the Fast, Easy, and Better way.

dakfink
07-18-2012, 02:49 AM
Wire NUTs!!!

Really!!!

That is House and Industrial wiring stuff. Not for Automotive or Aircraft.

Made to be used with Solid Strand wires. Grant not all the time can you always have solid strand wire. In that case it's always best to do the termination and then wrap the termination with electrical tape in a wrap that will hold the wire nut tight on the wires.

I also used to work Industrial Electrical, in an Aluminum Recycling Plant. Our Inspector told us if we didn't use at least 1 roll of Electrical Tape on every 3 wire nuts when doing splices we didn't have enough on them.

The way Wire Nuts work; They Cut into the wires inside actually making a Thread for them to grip on. If the wire is a Multi-Stranded they usually end up cutting many of the wires and become very susceptible to coming apart from Movement and vibrations.

If you want the standards for those get yourself a "National Electric Code 2012" book.

I'm not paying the $200+ for one.

PeteRT
07-18-2012, 02:54 AM
i like to twist ends together and maybe use some electrical tape to keep everything tidy. don't need any wire nuts that way.

dakfink
07-18-2012, 03:06 AM
i like to twist ends together and maybe use some electrical tape to keep everything tidy. don't need any wire nuts that way.

Been there done that 30yrs ago. It doesn't last too long!

grapejuice1998
07-18-2012, 03:16 AM
I think you're all (wire) nuts!

User
07-18-2012, 03:22 AM
No need to get butt-hurt over how someone else decides to crimp, twist, solder, or tape a wire. Just because you did it for awhile, does not make it the only way to do it.

Saying that,

I use to be MECP certified when installing car audio back in the day working at Best Buy, and I can vouch that wire nuts are specifically made for solid wire, and not standard like what vehicles use. So the argument about wire nuts, is ok.

1 way is not always the best way.

grapejuice1998
07-18-2012, 04:16 AM
I work with electricity all the time. I constantly run across both stranded and solid wires in wire nuts (sometimes both).

I have had my bottle heater wired with a wire nut (stranded wire) since 2001. It has never vibrated loose and it has always worked.

You may not like how it looks (and a book may tell you it's not right), but a wire nut will hold if it's properly sized for the wires.

User
07-18-2012, 04:24 AM
I work with electricity all the time. I constantly run across both stranded and solid wires in wire nuts (sometimes both).

I have had my bottle heater wired with a wire nut (stranded wire) since 2001. It has never vibrated loose and it has always worked.

You may not like how it looks (and a book may tell you it's not right), but a wire nut will hold if it's properly sized for the wires.

You can do it all you want on your own stuff, but when it comes to someone else's property, it can be brought up as a violation and cause more problems and even your job.

Do I use wire nuts on my own shit in my truck? Yes, would I do it on someone else's, No! Only because I don't want something to happen and then someone say, "hey, I'm suing you because blah blah blah" you know my luck. Something like that would happen.

My dad used wire nuts on EVERYTHING! That's how I originally learned to do it. They work, I'm just saying they are "technically" made for solid wire applications.

and yes they do look like ass, but fuck it!

Hugh Jassole
07-18-2012, 03:35 PM
No need to get butt-hurt over how someone else decides to crimp, twist, solder, or tape a wire. Just because you did it for awhile, does not make it the only way to do it.

Saying that,

I use to be MECP certified when installing car audio back in the day working at Best Buy, and I can vouch that wire nuts are specifically made for solid wire, and not standard like what vehicles use. So the argument about wire nuts, is ok.

1 way is not always the best way.

I chose to solder Friggin's truck, mainly because most of the chooched circuits ended up being bad butt connectors.

wyotech_cuda440
07-18-2012, 03:54 PM
Fwiw, I can guarantee you that wire nuts work fine on stranded wire, and it even says that they're approved for stranded wire on the box. (Ideal brand btw, the crappy wire nuts that come in the multi size selection at home depot just plain suck for any wire)

In the dairy industry, the chemicals and moisture are very rough on electrical components, and a lot of the equipment shakes and vibrates more than any automotive application.

Solder and shrink tube has the least amount of failures that I have to fix, followed by wire nuts that are filled with rtv and wrapped in tape. Crimped connectors are the most common failure, mostly due to corrosion.

grapejuice1998
07-18-2012, 03:58 PM
When I rewired my boat, I use crimp connectors that had shrink wrap built into them. I also used a badass ratchet crimper. So far, so good. (3yrs).

As always; there's more than one way to skin a cat. It doesn't really matter how, so long as it's skinned!

dakfink
07-18-2012, 05:58 PM
When I rewired my boat, I use crimp connectors that had shrink wrap built into them. I also used a badass ratchet crimper. So far, so good. (3yrs).

As always; there's more than one way to skin a cat. It doesn't really matter how, so long as it's skinned!

That's the kind I use.

The open butt splices like you get in most Automotive Kits, Suck and they do not provide any kind of environmental protection. They usually end up getting over crimped because the Supposed right slot in the crimper isn't enough and the next size is too much.

I work on my own stuff like I work on others. And I work on it like it is the 1 and only time I will ever be doing this. I don't want it coming back, Whether it's mine or someone elses.

As stated in the other thread at least 2 people had gremlins in their electrical system from poor wiring practices from previous owners. It would be different if they were the first or the only BUT just in the Dak-R/T group alone it seems I hear about Electrical issues every few months and most are related to bad connections from shoddy work.

I see it all the time at all different levels to include Pro-Race cars. $100k+ on the engine, Chassis, DriveTrain and suspension BUT they 1/2 ass the electrical and it looks like a rats nest. Then they start having electrical gremlins and inconsistent issues.

95% of the time Electronic Boxes either work or they don't. If you have an issue that is "come & go" it's usually in the wiring and usually at a connector/splice somewhere. Many times on the Ground side as well.

G-Man
07-18-2012, 06:15 PM
I like to Solder and shrink wrap my splices, on Automotive aplications, btw I'm a Licenced Electrician, for other applications I follow the code book, NFPA 70 is the NEC, I. Have several copy of that, wire nuts are usually the only Listed way of splicing, and I have heard solder is not the prefered way for Marine environments
G-Man

dakfink
07-18-2012, 06:38 PM
I like to Solder and shrink wrap my splices, on Automotive aplications, btw I'm a Licenced Electrician, for other applications I follow the code book, NFPA 70 is the NEC, I. Have several copy of that, wire nuts are usually the only Listed way of splicing, and I have heard solder is not the prefered way for Marine environments
G-Man

Same reason Aviation use the same standards.

As I pointed out in my first Post the Practices we follow were set by SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) and the US Navy. ONLY acceptable alternate is the Manufacture's Instructions.

We don't use NEC because there is too much that doesn't apply and would be over-kill or just wouldn't work.

Just like we are not allowed to use Forked Terminal lugs (Spades), our's have to be Loop Type. So they don't come off the stud if it were to be loosened by vibrations.

Adobedude
07-19-2012, 12:05 AM
I sodder everything.

I know it's not spelled "sodder", but it should be.

dakfink
07-19-2012, 04:00 AM
I sodder everything.

I know it's not spelled "sodder", but it should be.

LOL!!!:jester: I'm about Southern as they get. So That sounds just right to me!!!

Nolan
07-19-2012, 10:09 PM
The biggest reason most technical standards prefer a crimped and strain relieved connection is because that is generally the most idiot proof. IF the wires are properly stripped and fully inserted, and IF the correct connector is used the with correct ratcheting crimper, then the connection is gas tight so corrosion won't be an issue. The strain relief built into the connector prevents the wire from flexing and breaking off at the crimp point.

Soldering on the other hand is not idiot proof and the connection even if properly soldered is often not strain relieved. Most solder connections typically have way too much solder and if it's not a cold solder joint the solder wicks too far up the wire strands, past whatever strain relief of heat shrink tubing. Then when the wire is flexed, the strain is applied at the end of the solder wicking allowing the wire to break. If you can't see all of the exterior wire strands, it's too much solder and if it's not smooth and shiny like chrome, it's a cold solder joint.

Nolan

dakfink
07-19-2012, 10:29 PM
The biggest reason most technical standards prefer a crimped and strain relieved connection is because that is generally the most idiot proof. IF the wires are properly stripped and fully inserted, and IF the correct connector is used the with correct ratcheting crimper, then the connection is gas tight so corrosion won't be an issue. The strain relief built into the connector prevents the wire from flexing and breaking off at the crimp point.

Soldering on the other hand is not idiot proof and the connection even if properly soldered is often not strain relieved. Most solder connections typically have way too much solder and if it's not a cold solder joint the solder wicks too far up the wire strands, past whatever strain relief of heat shrink tubing. Then when the wire is flexed, the strain is applied at the end of the solder wicking allowing the wire to break. If you can't see all of the exterior wire strands, it's too much solder and if it's not smooth and shiny like chrome, it's a cold solder joint.

Nolan

:biggthumpup: Yes sir!!! That is what I usually find when I go behind someone that insist on soldering stuff.


Bets Most haven't heard of a COLD-SOLDER-JOINT, what it is and how to find one nor what causes it.

Nolan
07-19-2012, 11:22 PM
When I was custom building Harleys and doing custom hot rod & bike wiring back in my misspent youth I always soldered and sleeved my connectors for the cleaner look. However my regular day job was building mil-spec microwave transceiver rack harnesses for GTE so I had plenty of experience to do the job correctly.


Nolan

User
07-20-2012, 01:58 AM
:biggthumpup: Yes sir!!! That is what I usually find when I go behind someone that insist on soldering stuff.


Bets Most haven't heard of a COLD-SOLDER-JOINT, what it is and how to find one nor what causes it.

That's basic solder knowledge....

If all metal surfaces are not properly fluxed and brought above the melting temperature of the solder in use, the result will be an unreliable "cold solder joint".

I see people do it all the time, they melt the solder onto the wire or, touch the wire to the solder gun and then touch the solder making a shity solder. You must heat the wire and then let the solder "soak" into the wire and remove it, it does not take a lot.

I love how you make it seem like everyone should know it. Some people don't solder, some people don't know jack shit about anything dealing with wires/electricity.

It's like me saying, omg I bet everyone here doesn't know what the IRQ of a PCI COM port ID1 with dual transmissions means. Most people don't know jack shit about computers, and some do. Just like wiring shit correctly. Don't get cocky... You can wire shit and you know the terminology, good for you. Now come help me diagnose this issue with setting up the correct Northbridge L1 Cache of the CPU to the DDR3-SDRAM 4.2.2.2 Clocks.

grapejuice1998
07-20-2012, 02:54 AM
That's basic solder knowledge....

If all metal surfaces are not properly fluxed and brought above the melting temperature of the solder in use, the result will be an unreliable "cold solder joint".

I see people do it all the time, they melt the solder onto the wire or, touch the wire to the solder gun and then touch the solder making a shity solder. You must heat the wire and then let the solder "soak" into the wire and remove it, it does not take a lot.

I love how you make it seem like everyone should know it. Some people don't solder, some people don't know jack shit about anything dealing with wires/electricity.

It's like me saying, omg I bet everyone here doesn't know what the IRQ of a PCI COM port ID1 with dual transmissions means. Most people don't know jack shit about computers, and some do. Just like wiring shit correctly. Don't get cocky... You can wire shit and you know the terminology, good for you. Now come help me diagnose this issue with setting up the correct Northbridge L1 Cache of the CPU to the DDR3-SDRAM 4.2.2.2 Clocks.

Did you edit that to be even more confrontational?

User
07-20-2012, 04:23 AM
Did you edit that to be even more confrontational?

I added the part about computer lingo, how is that confrontational? It was a example, meaning just because you are good at something or know a lot about something doesn't mean be a prick about it. I'm sure when he first started doing solder he was a noob at it. It goes both ways. Saying things like "bet people don't even know what that is", is arrogant. No shit some people don't know what it is, not everyone on the planet is a master solder. :jerkit:

Hahns5.2
07-20-2012, 07:26 PM
Some seamed they wanted to argue and knew more than I do on the subject even though it has been my expertise and how I have made my living for the last 17+yrs.

Never claimed I know more than you do :idunno:


The open butt splices like you get in most Automotive Kits, Suck and they do not provide any kind of environmental protection. They usually end up getting over crimped because the Supposed right slot in the crimper isn't enough and the next size is too much.
Which is exactly why I avoid them. Most crimps I've done have worked fine but I've had enough problems to make me not want to use them anymore. And again, I'm not paying out the ass for quality crimps and crimpers when soldering/shrinktube gets the job done more than well enough for my purposes. I'll gladly post up when I have electrical problems related to soldering and you can say "I told you so" :biggthumpup:

FWIW, a lot of my day job involves soldering (both circuit boards and wiring harnesses).

Adobedude
07-22-2012, 02:20 PM
First thing you have to have is the right size solder gun for the ga of wire, it's not one size fits all.

That's about all I know... :biggthumpup:

grapejuice1998
07-22-2012, 03:21 PM
First thing you have to have is the right size solder gun for the ga of wire, it's not one size fits all.

That's about all I know... :biggthumpup:

I used to race slot cars back in the 90's. We always used the largest sized iron that we could lay our hands on. We used it for everything from an oil-lite, to the leads, to the motor itself. The leads were really small, but the body of a 16D was really big in comparison.

So, my opinion on soldering is; get a big iron, "tin it" and call it a day. A soapstone is good to have too, but a wet paper towel will work almost as well. And then, of course, you need flux and solder.

dakfink
07-22-2012, 09:32 PM
I used to race slot cars back in the 90's. We always used the largest sized iron that we could lay our hands on. We used it for everything from an oil-lite, to the leads, to the motor itself. The leads were really small, but the body of a 16D was really big in comparison.

So, my opinion on soldering is; get a big iron, "tin it" and call it a day. A soapstone is good to have too, but a wet paper towel will work almost as well. And then, of course, you need flux and solder.

YEP!!!

Better to have one BIGGER than you really need. Within reason.

What happens with a lot of people is they try to heat their work with an Iron that is too small and end up overheating in spots and not heating the entire work evenly.

It's kind of like welding. You want your heat right where you are working and not dissipated elsewhere.

Hahns5.2
07-22-2012, 11:58 PM
Yeah, I like a nice big iron (70+ watts), preferably with a 1/8" chisel tip. Small irons don't heat up big wires very fast and you end up heating long lengths of wire while you wait, as previously said.

ScojoDak
07-23-2012, 01:16 AM
I use the open butt splicers (remove the plastic cover) with a crimp, and follow it up with solder and shrink tube.

6speedrt
07-23-2012, 04:08 AM
I use the open butt splicers (remove the plastic cover) with a crimp, and follow it up with solder and shrink tube.

This is what I do mostly.