The Bible on building an N/A 360 - LOL

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

Mr. "400HP here I come" is at it again on Steve's site. He's written the definitive bible on how to build a N/A 400HP magnum motor. While some of his info is relative and good, it's hardly a secret. He could've learned that from reading any online forum or car magazine. Other stuff is just so funny though. Things like R/T heads are the best qulaity out there. "Nobody ever has problems with those", he said. LOL, obviously he's never heard of the core shift issues or valve guides being drilled wrong etc. etc. The kicker is when he got to tuning. "I don't know anything about the SCT system, but you don't need it". There are no gains to be had over a stock canned flash, like B&G, was the point he was trying to make.
The guy really has no clue, and he's gonna tell everyone else how to do it. And the topper, his truck isn't even making the 400 HP he claims. He goes on, later in the write up, to admit that he's only making 350 HP. Even this is a guess though, as he posted some sub 300HP dyno figures and "extrapolated" the 350 HP @ the crank from those #s. I really don't give a shit about this guy, but the way he tries to paint himself as the know all/end all is hilarious. Here's the link.......

http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48662 (http://www.dakota-durango.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48662)

[ChrisR/T]

What a tard.

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

What a tard.


yeah, but he's a "know it all" tard :jester:

[ChrisR/T]

If by know it all, you mean he knows what color of stuff comes out of the poop shoot, than yes, he's a know it all.

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

If by know it all, you mean he knows what color of stuff comes out of the poop shoot, than yes, he's a know it all.

Did you read the whole thing though ? Boy I bet he sure likes to hear himself talk. I went back at him for some other BS one time and everyone cried foul. He does have a group of nut swingers, on Steve's site, who buy his BS. That's the truely sad part

[rattler360]

lol a 220 cam is to large for the 360 lol

[ChrisR/T]

lol a 220 cam is to large for the 360 lol

? I'm running a 210/220 in my truck.

I think a 220 would run fine, personally.:woot:

[mtlcafan79]

220 in a street 360 will be a bit dogged IMHO. My 408 is a 224/229 and it likes to bog down lown when the convertor locks up. I think a low duration, high torque, tire shredding cam in our trucks is a lot more fun than something drag related. My 360 throws out a ton of torque in a super flat curve. It's a blast to drive on the street.

[scatpackdal]

all you silly folk talking about building engines... he says look to spend 6-8k... all i know is i can go buy a crate 408 for 3.6k with a proven 375hp/460tq.

[rattler360]

i dont consider my truck drag only

[Five9Dak]

"I wanted sound, so I went with my shorty headers."

? what ? haha I thought this guy was decently knowledgable from his other posts, until I saw this write up.

I bet he has more area under the curve, but his 400hp motor heads and cam motor only makes 6 more hp and 50 less ftlbs compared to mine, and runs the 1/4 .1 quicker.

[rattler360]

that write up is a joke

[bad360rt]

The first line of his post is:

"There’s hundreds of ways to build a 360 MAGNUM. This is not the bible, nor is this the only way to build one."

Just a guy trying to share what he's experienced with his truck, I don't see anything wrong with that. Some good info in there, some of it's a lil off, but at least he put the effort into doing a write-up, something more folks should do. :biggthumpup:

[SinCity R/T]

The first line of his post is:

"There’s hundreds of ways to build a 360 MAGNUM. This is not the bible, nor is this the only way to build one."

Just a guy trying to share what he's experienced with his truck, I don't see anything wrong with that. Some good info in there, some of it's a lil off, but at least he put the effort into doing a write-up, something more folks should do. :biggthumpup:

If people spent even 10% as much time helping people out as they do bitching up a storm about other people's opinions, we'd all be running 10's.

[John]

All I see him doing is sharing his experience with everyone. Hes not trying to say its how it has to be done, its just one way to get that kind of power. More people should share what they have experienced and what they feel works best for a given situation. Also that guess of 350 hp at the crank is probably about right or at least not far off. Also thats with the 1.92 heads. Hes looking for more.

all you silly folk talking about building engines... he says look to spend 6-8k... all i know is i can go buy a crate 408 for 3.6k with a proven 375hp/460tq.

Yeah but if you are talking about the one I am thinking of, thats an LA engine with magnum heads. And unless you are going carb'd by the time you get it in and tuned you are going to be spending quite a bit more than that anyway.

[rattler360]

the only problem i have with this post and most of the books on magnum engines, is that no one is willing to think outside the box and try new things

[bad360rt]

If people spent even 10% as much time helping people out as they do bitching up a storm about other people's opinions, we'd all be running 10's.

My thoughts exactly! I remember when I first got my truck, it was a huge deal for guys that were breaking into the 13's n/a, now we have guys running 11's and 10's n/a, we've come a long way. The more we can share our info and experiences, the more everyone benefits. I hate it when people talk about their "secret" cam specs, or they just won't talk about their setups at all. It's not like we're professional teams and giving away secrets means we're gonna lose points and money, we're pretty much all in it for fun, so might as well share the knowledge.

[Duner]

I enjoy taking the "mad scientist" approach to mods.
It wouldn't be any fun if I was just following a "recipe".

[bad360rt]

I enjoy taking the "mad scientist" approach to mods.
It wouldn't be any fun if I was just following a "recipe".

Please, you and your cookie cutter trucks. If I had a nickel for every homebuilt 10sec turbo Dakota I've seen, I'd have...well...a nickel :nana:

[Mopar318]

Please, you and your cookie cutter trucks. If I had a nickel for every homebuilt 10sec turbo Dakota I've seen, I'd have...well...a nickel :nana:

Eh, you might have a dime sooner or later.:biggthumpup::woot:

[Mopar318]

As for complaining about someones write up, why would you take the time to post it on ANOTHER forum, when you could easily just ask him about some points in the thread itself.

Its just plastering the word "B**ch" right on to your forehead.

[bad360rt]

Eh, you might have a dime sooner or later.:biggthumpup::woot:

Hell yeah! :biggthumpup:

[Mopar318]

Hell yeah! :biggthumpup:

Just gonna need alot of dimes to get there.:jester:

[360 XRT]

I know i only rip on people for shopping at walmart or doing ricer mods to there dakota,but ripping on na 360 for that engine thread makes you a TURD,jackass.Whether you agree with him or not,the guy was only trying to help people out. He should be applauded for his efforts and we could use more like him.

[bad360rt]

Just gonna need alot of dimes to get there.:jester:

No kidding, I'm all out, I think cocaine would be a cheaper habit. :laughing:

[krusty_R/T]

Atleast the guy put some effort in it.

If you know the perfect way to build a 360 DON, why don't you enlighten us with a write-up of your own? Oh wait, you're busy worrying about your headlights....never mind :nana:

[rattler360]

i proposed an idea of doing a performance and history book on the dakota, and invited anyone that wanted to contribute, focusing on making performance mods, drag racing, autocross, turbos, etc. but only a few people seemed interested

[Mopar318]

i proposed an idea of doing a performance and history book on the dakota, and invited anyone that wanted to contribute, focusing on making performance mods, drag racing, autocross, turbos, etc. but only a few people seemed interested

I would be interested.

[ChrisR/T]

It really doesn't take a ton of work to extract 13's out of these trucks, just takes a little bit of time to read, talk to people and learn what works and what doesn't.

Throwing money and parts at these trucks is just like throwing money and parts at any other car, you'll get lucky or you won't. I happen to be one of those that chose not to throw money at the truck, and instead take the time to learn from people that had been here for a while what parts/tricks work, and what doesn't.

For instance, suspension for drag racing:

I have escentally three mods done to my truck suspension wise for drag racing. Drop the front sway bar, remove the rear leaf spring clamps, and add a clamp to the front of the leaf pack. Other than that, I've got nothin'. No hotchkis, no drag shocks, none of that stuff. I run on a 275-40-17 drag radial, with a Mopar 2400 stall convertor, cutting 1.8 and 1.9 60fts all day/night/year long.

That coming from a truck that put down only 264whp/335wtrq.

I don't have a ton done to the engine either, just the basic stuff every R/T modder does.

M1 2bbl, 52mm TB, GiSM/Spintech mid-lengths, ASP Underdrive pulley, B&G M1 flash, and Harland Sharp 1.7 Rockers, Autolite 3923 plugs, MSD wires.


The only thing "custom" in the power department is my exhaust system. It's a true-dual H-pipe setup. I used a GiSM Y-pipe, cut the Y out of it, had my exhaust shop fit up some 2.5" pipes to it, put an H-pipe a little further down the line, and it comes to two dumps in front of the rear axle. I picked up a boat-load of torque on the dyno (IIRC it was on the line of ~20lb-ft) and only about 6 or so WHP. That was over a single 3" setup.

IMHO, one of the things limiting these trucks is gear selection. It's either stock, 4.10, or 4.56, or 4.88. 4.88 is useless unless you're spinning to 7500, 4.56 is really to me, pushing it, and 4.10 is only a mild upgrade over stock. With the 275-40-17 that I run, it gives the equvilant of a 4.30 gear, again IMO, that would be the tits for our trucks. A bit more than stock, a bit less than a 4.56 and you're still able to cruise the highway at 75mph.

How's that for a write up? That's a basic, and tried/true reciept for mid 13's @ 99-100mph, driving it to and from the track. Throw a short belt on it and now you're touching 13.3's/13.4's@101-102.

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

After my PCM tuning blunder I have decided that I don't think enough of my own knowledge to ever pretend to tell someone what to do again. I'll relay my own experience and what worked for me, but I would never be that cocky to post a "this is how to do it" article. I'm 100% sure that whatever knowledge I have in my head, is not the definitive answer on any subject.

That said, his article struck me as funny for a couple of reasons. There was flawed info about heads, tuning, & headers. He claimed to know how to easily make 400 HP NA, and he's not making it himself :jerkit:. He came off to me as pompous, maybe I have a warped veiwpoint...whatever. I thought it was funny.

[ChrisR/T]

That said, his article struck me as funny for a couple of reasons. There was flawed info about heads, tuning, & headers. He claimed to know how to easily make 400 HP NA, and he's not making it himself :jerkit:. He came off to me as pompous, maybe I have a warped veiwpoint...whatever. I thought it was funny.

That's the part that really struck me and the reason I poked fun.

He's claiming that XXX parts should help out his calculated XXX horsepower, but he doesn't know for sure. He also made errors in talking about the heads, tuning options, and other stuff too.

I mean, if we're going to make a definite "How to do xxxx", it should be a collaberative, and almost come with a stamp of approval for a given horsepower/E.T/MPH.

[mtlcafan79]

Have you told them about your super secret "two fat guys" mod yet? I hear that's good for a couple tenths added to your ET. I've seen the Supra guys use it on the big HP dyno runs. It must be good for something.

[ChrisR/T]

Have you told them about your super secret "two fat guys" mod yet? I hear that's good for a couple tenths added to your ET. I've seen the Supra guys use it on the big HP dyno runs. It must be good for something.

Shush! that's my traction adding device! It's better than filling the tailgate with concrete!

That's why the supra guys do it, two fat guys in the hatch is good for almost a full second!!!:jester:

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

That's the part that really struck me and the reason I poked fun.

He's claiming that XXX parts should help out his calculated XXX horsepower, but he doesn't know for sure. He also made errors in talking about the heads, tuning options, and other stuff too.

I mean, if we're going to make a definite "How to do xxxx", it should be a collaberative, and almost come with a stamp of approval for a given horsepower/E.T/MPH.


Agreed. And, the info should be verified as accurate. Hell, I've seen way more people bitching about the shitty casting quality of R/T heads, yet he says they're great. Am I missing something here. The EQs and Eddies are a far better option at this point.

[ChrisR/T]

Agreed. And, the info should be verified as accurate. Hell, I've seen way more people bitching about the shitty casting quality of R/T heads, yet he says they're great. Am I missing something here. The EQs and Eddies are a far better option at this point.

Not to mention he totally neglected the Mopar aluminum heads, or the W series of heads. I mean, if you're going to write an article, include most of the parties.

His bit on camshafts was a joke. Apparently my shit is going to BTFU when I put a cam in it because I can't run 1.7 rockers with a cam. Never mind the dozens of people that have done it already.

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

Not to mention he totally neglected the Mopar aluminum heads, or the W series of heads. I mean, if you're going to write an article, include most of the parties.

His bit on camshafts was a joke. Apparently my shit is going to BTFU when I put a cam in it because I can't run 1.7 rockers with a cam. Never mind the dozens of people that have done it already.


I'm doing it now with good success. I need to get this thing tuned though. I'm running the standard B&G M1 flash now, and it's not cutting it. Cams are an area I stay away from, I'm smart enough to know that I don't know all the ins & outs about choosing the right one. I feel much better about getting a reccomendation from Danno or one of the more knowledgeable guys out there.

[ChrisR/T]

That's what I did with my setup. Except I wanted a 108 or 110LSA, i was told 108 was to low for these truck so i stuck with a 110.

I'm hoping to crank out 310-330whp out of my stock looking setup. It won't sound stock when I fire it off, but, when I'm sitting in a parking lot BSing, or trying to setup a street run, no one will be the wiser.

Ported stock heads, 1.97/1.625, .544 210/220 110 cam, and all my other crap. If i don't pick up 50whp, i'm gonna be pissed.

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

That's what I did with my setup. Except I wanted a 108 or 110LSA, i was told 108 was to low for these truck so i stuck with a 110.

I'm hoping to crank out 310-330whp out of my stock looking setup. It won't sound stock when I fire it off, but, when I'm sitting in a parking lot BSing, or trying to setup a street run, no one will be the wiser.

Ported stock heads, 1.97/1.625, .544 210/220 110 cam, and all my other crap. If i don't pick up 50whp, i'm gonna be pissed.

My cam is close to that, and it has a noticeable lope at idle. I'm doing a sausage cam with 1.7s, and people come up to me all the time at cruise nights saying how nasty it sounds. I just laugh to myself thinking, "you haven't heard some of the REAL nasty R/Ts that are out there".

[ChrisR/T]

My cam is close to that, and it has a noticeable lope at idle. I'm doing a sausage cam with 1.7s, and people come up to me all the time at cruise nights saying how nasty it sounds. I just laugh to myself thinking, "you haven't heard some of the REAL nasty R/Ts that are out there".

I heard a video on here the other day of a black truck that had a 210X in it, and it sounded NASTY. Mine's along the same lines, so, yeah, I can't wait to go to cruise nights with it, and intimadate the guys with older muscle cars and their flat-tappet cams, with my little ol' hydro roller!

[Siciliano15]

I would be interested.

hey u ever get that muffler installed? how did u like it? hope it wasnt still too loud.

[Siciliano15]

I heard a video on here the other day of a black truck that had a 210X in it, and it sounded NASTY. Mine's along the same lines, so, yeah, I can't wait to go to cruise nights with it, and intimadate the guys with older muscle cars and their flat-tappet cams, with my little ol' hydro roller!

lol thats prob my video u saw..... the 210x is a nice cam it has lots of torque and great midrange power too. however, when i switched from stock heads cam to the eddies and 210x cam, i initially only picked up about 35-40 rear wheel and my quarter mile times went from 13.7 at 99mph to 13.4 at 102mph. im sure my times are better now that i got the new aps trans and aps 3000 billet stall in along with a rollpan to replace the rear bumper. however i dont know if these mods are enough to get me into the 12's. I plan to redyno the truck this friday to see if i picked up any power from the new trans stuff and go from there. overall though i think u will like the 210x especially for the sound difference but it has a decent powerband.

[ChrisR/T]

lol thats prob my video u saw..... the 210x is a nice cam it has lots of torque and great midrange power too. however, when i switched from stock heads cam to the eddies and 210x cam, i initially only picked up about 35-40 rear wheel and my quarter mile times went from 13.7 at 99mph to 13.4 at 102mph. im sure my times are better now that i got the new aps trans and aps 3000 billet stall in along with a rollpan to replace the rear bumper. however i dont know if these mods are enough to get me into the 12's. I plan to redyno the truck this friday to see if i picked up any power from the new trans stuff and go from there. overall though i think u will like the 210x especially for the sound difference but it has a decent powerband.

Is your truck tuned? Or do you have one of the canned flashes from B&G or Tom Fox? I plan on getting mine tuned in for great driveablity and power.

If i pickup 35whp alone on the heads/cam setup, that'll put me right at the 300whp mark. I think I could gain another 5-15whp from a good tune, and I'd be happy.

[krusty_R/T]

That's what I did with my setup. Except I wanted a 108 or 110LSA, i was told 108 was to low for these truck so i stuck with a 110.

I'm hoping to crank out 310-330whp out of my stock looking setup. It won't sound stock when I fire it off, but, when I'm sitting in a parking lot BSing, or trying to setup a street run, no one will be the wiser.

Ported stock heads, 1.97/1.625, .544 210/220 110 cam, and all my other crap. If i don't pick up 50whp, i'm gonna be pissed.
Watch out for those ported stock heads. Mine are most certainly warped with less than 15K miles on them. I'm now saving for Eddys...

[ChrisR/T]

Watch out for those ported stock heads. Mine are most certainly warped with less than 15K miles on them. I'm now saving for Eddys...

How did they warp? Did you pop a gasket? Over heat it?

[mtlcafan79]

He has a set of the EngineQuest heads IIRC. HD, Iron Ram, Hughes, whatever you want to call them.

[krusty_R/T]

How did they warp?
Honestly, no idea. There were Fastman ported so that may have something to do with it...LOL
Or the fact I actually drove the truck. Kyle rarely drove it beside too and from the track.

Did you pop a gasket?
Yup, once in March and popped the second time 10 days ago. Same exact area, just this time coolant was pushed between the block and head. I was WOT

Over heat it?
Nope. Both times truck was at operating temp ~ 180*

Personally, it's probably just my shitty luck :jerkit: LOL

[mtlcafan79]

I think I have you confused with Don. I thought you had the EQ heads? I'd reconsider putting that kinda money into stock heads. It's up to you though.

[mtlcafan79]

My faith in Fastman engines isn't the best now after seeing mine and other's with similar issues in the bottom end.

[rattler360]

well any one interested in helping doing a book please contact me

[krusty_R/T]

My faith in Fastman engines isn't the best now after seeing mine and other's with similar issues in the bottom end.
I am extremely happy he did not touch my bottom end! LOL

That sounds dirty...:jester:

[ChrisR/T]

I think I have you confused with Don. I thought you had the EQ heads? I'd reconsider putting that kinda money into stock heads. It's up to you though.

I bought a set of brand new magnum heads about two years ago at Englishtown for 100 or 200 bucks. It was cheap, and they're complete.

Anyway I can check and see if they're the HD heads or not?

Go here: http://www.dakotart.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1622

Provide with insight.

[Siciliano15]

Is your truck tuned? Or do you have one of the canned flashes from B&G or Tom Fox? I plan on getting mine tuned in for great driveablity and power.

If i pickup 35whp alone on the heads/cam setup, that'll put me right at the 300whp mark. I think I could gain another 5-15whp from a good tune, and I'd be happy.

i have the tom fox flash but i am going to have him reflash it soon according to the a/f readings i get on the dyno.

[ChrisR/T]

I bet you pick up even more power!

[SinCity R/T]

How's that for a write up? That's a basic, and tried/true reciept for mid 13's @ 99-100mph, driving it to and from the track. Throw a short belt on it and now you're touching 13.3's/13.4's@101-102.

There's nothing wrong with your list, but your mods won't produce 13's everywhere that people race - you'd be lucky to run a mid-14 here with those parts.

[ChrisR/T]

There's nothing wrong with your list, but your mods won't produce 13's everywhere that people race - you'd be lucky to run a mid-14 here with those parts.


But neither would the mods that the guy listed before on his write up.

Hell, with all his stuff, he's only making 6 more WHP than me, and I'm stock heads/cam.

[Siciliano15]

I bet you pick up even more power!

i hope so but even if i do it prob wont be much. maybe 3-5hp.

[SinCity R/T]

But neither would the mods that the guy listed before on his write up.

Hell, with all his stuff, he's only making 6 more WHP than me, and I'm stock heads/cam.

As I posted on Delphi - once you distill the basic rambling away, this is what he recommends people should use for a built 360:
1) M1-2bbl intake manifold
2) 52mm or 55mm throttle body
3) Some sort of cold air intake
4) 180 degree thermostat
5) If you want to avoid low-end loss with a M1-4bbl intake, use 4.56 gears
6) Long-tube headers, x-pipe, true dual 2.5" exhaust
7) "Optional" - MSD 6AL, Accel cap/rotor, coil, wires
8) Ultimately recommends a 210X
9) A bit of rambling here, but recommends the Mopar 2.02 R/T heads
10) Doesn't really make a recommendation for 1.6 or 1.7, just says use roller rockers and make sure the cam's cut for what you have
11) He says he knows nothing about SCT, doesn't think that a mild setup requires SCT tuning, but does give some PCM flash spec recommendations
12) Use the factory 21# injectors
13) Viper converter, 3000-3400 stall (or use MSaine)
14) Transgo shift kit
15) N/A: 4.56 gears Boosted: 3.92 gears

I know that people have other opinions about some of those parts, but I can't really see whats "wrong" with that list.

[Siciliano15]

As I posted on Delphi - once you distill the basic rambling away, this is what he recommends people should use for a built 360:
1) M1-2bbl intake manifold
2) 52mm or 55mm throttle body
3) Some sort of cold air intake
4) 180 degree thermostat
5) If you want to avoid low-end loss with a M1-4bbl intake, use 4.56 gears
6) Long-tube headers, x-pipe, true dual 2.5" exhaust
7) "Optional" - MSD 6AL, Accel cap/rotor, coil, wires
8) Ultimately recommends a 210X
9) A bit of rambling here, but recommends the Mopar 2.02 R/T heads
10) Doesn't really make a recommendation for 1.6 or 1.7, just says use roller rockers and make sure the cam's cut for what you have
11) He says he knows nothing about SCT, doesn't think that a mild setup requires SCT tuning, but does give some PCM flash spec recommendations
12) Use the factory 21# injectors
13) Viper converter, 3000-3400 stall (or use MSaine)
14) Transgo shift kit
15) N/A: 4.56 gears Boosted: 3.92 gears

I know that people have other opinions about some of those parts, but I can't really see whats "wrong" with that list.

ur right it is a pretty good list. some people may change certain things around but for the most part its a good list of parts.

[grapejuice1998]

As I posted on Delphi - once you distill the basic rambling away, this is what he recommends people should use for a built 360:
1) M1-2bbl intake manifold
2) 52mm or 55mm throttle body
3) Some sort of cold air intake
4) 180 degree thermostat
5) If you want to avoid low-end loss with a M1-4bbl intake, use 4.56 gears
6) Long-tube headers, x-pipe, true dual 2.5" exhaust
7) "Optional" - MSD 6AL, Accel cap/rotor, coil, wires
8) Ultimately recommends a 210X
9) A bit of rambling here, but recommends the Mopar 2.02 R/T heads
10) Doesn't really make a recommendation for 1.6 or 1.7, just says use roller rockers and make sure the cam's cut for what you have
11) He says he knows nothing about SCT, doesn't think that a mild setup requires SCT tuning, but does give some PCM flash spec recommendations
12) Use the factory 21# injectors
13) Viper converter, 3000-3400 stall (or use MSaine)
14) Transgo shift kit
15) N/A: 4.56 gears Boosted: 3.92 gears

I know that people have other opinions about some of those parts, but I can't really see whats "wrong" with that list.

Me neither. Sounds like mods we've all been doing for years.

[Mopar318]

hey u ever get that muffler installed? how did u like it? hope it wasnt still too loud.

Yeah I installed it. It quieted down my 3" turbo back pretty good. Doesnt really matter right now though, I still havnt got the time or money to put it on the road.

[Siciliano15]

Yeah I installed it. It quieted down my 3" turbo back pretty good. Doesnt really matter right now though, I still havnt got the time or money to put it on the road.

thats good to hear