I have a quick question..

[Notsosane]

I'm having sporadic hesitation when I try to give my truck gas from a complete stop.. It doesn't happen all the time but it seems to happen at the worst times. I was told that it was due to the intake manifold and Edelbrock breather combo and I would need what they called an intake "dog?" or intake spoon and I have googled to no end and I have had no luck.. I was wondering if any of you have heard of this and where I might find such a thing.

[hskr]

I think someone is feeding you a line of crap. What manifold do you have? When was the last time you changed your spark plugs and cap/rotor? Fuel injector cleaner ever? I recommend the Lucas Oil injector cleaner. If you are running the M1, is it 2bbl or 4bbl, and have you ever had your fuel sync checked?

[Intense RT]

Might be worth a look to see if the idle air control valve and the port it sits in is clean too. You are transitioning off idle...

[grapejuice1998]

I think they have the wrong animal. I'd bet money they mean a Turtle. In any case, the intake isn't the problem.
Who really knows without being there and laying their hands on it? I'd be more inclined to suspect the coil, or tune up components, but any of the other comments could be just as likely.

[Notsosane]

I have the Mopar Performance P5007852
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-5007852/

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/dcc-5007852_w.jpg

It has had a tune up and all fluids changed and injector cleaner in the last month..

It does it the worse when it's been sitting for a few minutes and you start it back up at close to operating temperature.

[Notsosane]

What I have fuel related is the before mentioned intake, Holley throttle body part # 510-112-555, Venom injectors, and Venom fuel pump.

[grapejuice1998]

What I have fuel related is the before mentioned intake, Holley throttle body part # 510-112-555, Venom injectors, and Venom fuel pump.

What sized injector and what psi is it running at now, with the different pump?

BTW the intake is awesome. That's the very best one for a lightly modded truck, in my opinion.

[Notsosane]

They are 19lb injectors and I'm not real sure on the pump to be honest.. Here's everything done to the truck

Mopar Performance intake
Holley TB
Venom 19lb injectors
Venom fuel pump
Comp 210/220 .512 .512 Cam
Comp 1.6 roller rockers
Underdrive pulleys
Gibson headers
Magnaflow 3" exhaust
2800 Stall
SCT tuned
E Fans
Edelbrock breather with K&N filter

[hskr]

Get rid of the 19lb injectors, they are too small for your truck and your off throttle hesitation is probably from running lean. Stock we have 21-22lb injectors, so by putting in the 19lb ones you have actually hurt your fuel system.

[Intense RT]

Get rid of the 19lb injectors, they are too small for your truck and your off throttle hesitation is probably from running lean. Stock we have 21-22lb injectors, so by putting in the 19lb ones you have actually hurt your fuel system.

Iow, he needs to changs the base pulsewidth cells for that rpm and manifold pressure where the problem occurs. There is also a power enrichment (not the wot) scalar that smooths the transition from idle to power. Or have someone else do it giving them datalog info also.

[hskr]

Iow, he needs to changs the base pulsewidth cells for that rpm and manifold pressure where the problem occurs. There is also a power enrichment (not the wot) scalar that smooths the transition from idle to power. Or have someone else do it giving them datalog info also.
Or stop trying to use injectors too small for his truck and get the right size, and then get his tune adjusted for the correct injectors. He needs a wideband, and I'd bet he'd see what I was talking about with the lean off idle situation. Chances are if he hooked up a scanner that could read injector pulse width he'd be pretty close to maxed out right now.

[Intense RT]

He has a 99. They were rated at 19.

Since we have higher pressure than what the typical non oem inj is rated at... Then it is possible it flows more fuel than the factory inj's it had. May not be so, but they could be. I don't see a problem but the....possible....need for a tune tweak or something else. Is the fuel pressure ok? Iac clean?

[hskr]

He has a 99. They were rated at 19.

Since we have higher pressure than what the typical non oem inj is rated at... Then it is possible it flows more fuel than the factory inj's it had. May not be so, but they could be. I don't see a problem but the....possible....need for a tune tweak or something else. Is the fuel pressure ok? Iac clean?
I've been through all this before. I had a '99 as well, and even still have my '99 injectors. I did a cross reference search using the part number from my '99 injectors and everything I found came up as 22.5lb/hr injectors. Your results may vary, but I still stand by my research vs what others have just accepted as the "right" rating. The only difference between the '98-'99 injectors and the '00+ red ones is the manufacturer and connector style. The flow rating is the same.

[Intense RT]

I've been through all this before. I had a '99 as well, and even still have my '99 injectors. I did a cross reference search using the part number from my '99 injectors and everything I found came up as 22.5lb/hr injectors. Your results may vary, but I still stand by my research vs what others have just accepted as the "right" rating. The only difference between the '98-'99 injectors and the '00+ red ones is the manufacturer and connector style. The flow rating is the same.
Lol, I know you have...a couple times at least. What pressure were they rated at? If stock pressure then I can see typical 39.5 psi 19lb inj's flowing what, about 22lbs/hr at our pressure. Either way, not a lot of difference to get corrective over. They will work, especially na and no ported heads. Getting off topic imo.

Anyway, to the OP, hope you figure it out.

[hskr]

Lol, I know you have...a couple times at least. What pressure were they rated at? If stock pressure then I can see typical 39.5 psi 19lb inj's flowing what, about 22lbs/hr at our pressure. Either way, not a lot of difference to get corrective over. They will work, especially na and no ported heads. Getting off topic imo.

Anyway, to the OP, hope you figure it out.
No they won't work with a ported head n/a motor. been there done that, running 25lb injectors now. Even with a M1, TB, headers, cam you will be pushing them to their max. Not good for injectors to run at max pulse width. And the 22.5lbs/hr rating was at the stock 49psi. industry standard is 43 psi which put them around 21lb injectors. I've done the research, I'm not just throwing numbers out there based on what I've heard others guess them to be. 19lb injectors will work on a mostly stock motor. Once you start getting past your basic bolt ons like CAI, TB, and exhaust they are going start getting too small.

[hskr]

A wideband A/F gauge will tell the story. I'm still betting on it being lean off idle.

[Adobedude]

I've been through all this before. I had a '99 as well, and even still have my '99 injectors. I did a cross reference search using the part number from my '99 injectors and everything I found came up as 22.5lb/hr injectors. Your results may vary, but I still stand by my research vs what others have just accepted as the "right" rating. The only difference between the '98-'99 injectors and the '00+ red ones is the manufacturer and connector style. The flow rating is the same.

I always read the flow rating is the same, the fuel pressure is what ups the flow from 19 to 22.5.

[hskr]

I always read the flow rating is the same, the fuel pressure is what ups the flow from 19 to 22.5. And that's the problem, people just read and don't do any of their own research.

Use any of the fuel pressure/flow rate calculators online and going from 43psi to 49 psi won't bump a 19lb injector up to 22.5. just not possible unless all the calculators are wrong. Here's one for example. http://www.csgnetwork.com/fiflowcalc.html Shows a 21lb injector at 43.5 psi flows 22.2psi at our stock 49psi of fuel pressure. So tell me again how we have 19 lb injectors stock? You have to bump up the fuel pressure to 60psi to get a 19lb injector to flow 22.3psi. I would think you of all people would have done your homework on flow rates and fuel pressure.

[grapejuice1998]

'98/'99 come stock with 19's. They didn't got to 21's until '00, which is why the connector is different.

[Intense RT]

And that's the problem, people just read and don't do any of their own research.

Use any of the fuel pressure/flow rate calculators online and going from 43psi to 49 psi won't bump a 19lb injector up to 22.5. just not possible unless all the calculators are wrong. Here's one for example. http://www.csgnetwork.com/fiflowcalc.html Shows a 21lb injector at 43.5 psi flows 22.2psi at our stock 49psi of fuel pressure. So tell me again how we have 19 lb injectors stock? You have to bump up the fuel pressure to 60psi to get a 19lb injector to flow 22.3psi. I would think you of all people would have done your homework on flow rates and fuel pressure.
What other resources do you have access to?

I just used several online calculators recently and the number I threw out was off the top of my head... and ford racing inj's are rated at 39.5 ....39 something anyway.

We are also assuming the 22.5 is correct and I have caught errors before where non technical catalog people throw an approximate number in the blank.

Back to the OP's problem...Are we assuming the pump moves the same volume of fuel?

This probably has nothing to do with his problem lol.

[KTK00R/T]

I don't have the best e-mail tune in the world, but my stock red 21's are doing just fine with head/cam according to my wideband...

[grapejuice1998]

I just now got to the shop, so I looked at my stock gray'98 injector and wrote down the p/n. It is Siemens #53030778. I Googled that number and all posts that refer to it say it's a 23.3 lb injector @ 43.5 psi. So, unlike anything Brian's ever done in his miserable life, I will admit that I was wrong. The stock injector is not 19 lbs. It is indeed 23 lbs.

[Notsosane]

The ones that I bought were 648-422 and they said it was a direct replacement for the oem ones and that they were 19lb... I've done spent this much so I don't have a problem ordering more if that will fix the problem..What do you suggest?

[hskr]

'98/'99 come stock with 19's. They didn't got to 21's until '00, which is why the connector is different.
The color is different because they switched to a different manufacturer for the injectors.

[hskr]

What other resources do you have access to?

I just used several online calculators recently and the number I threw out was off the top of my head... and ford racing inj's are rated at 39.5 ....39 something anyway.

We are also assuming the 22.5 is correct and I have caught errors before where non technical catalog people throw an approximate number in the blank.

Back to the OP's problem...Are we assuming the pump moves the same volume of fuel?

This probably has nothing to do with his problem lol.
What resources do I have?? Really? I just gave unquestionable proof that a 19lb injector cannot flow the 22.5lbs others have admitted it flows based on the fuel pressures we know for a fact are used.

At least Alan actually did some research to prove my point unlike others who just want to stick to the assumed numbers. And people say I'm always the one who wants to argue. I posted facts and proof to back them up and you still argued against them without proof to back it up.

[hskr]

I don't have the best e-mail tune in the world, but my stock red 21's are doing just fine with head/cam according to my wideband...
The stock injectors are fine for a mild heads/cam motor. They are not 19lb injectors.

[hskr]

The ones that I bought were 648-422 and they said it was a direct replacement for the oem ones and that they were 19lb... I've done spent this much so I don't have a problem ordering more if that will fix the problem..What do you suggest?

From the description I found for those specific injectors.
Designed to support up to 245 Horsepower

Stock our motors are rated at 250hp, so that right there should throw up a flag to tell you they are going to be too small when you start adding mods. Don't always believe the listed "applications" on parts like this. They are listed as replacements for otherwise stock vehicles. Once you start adding mods, you can no longer use stock replacement parts. I suggest you put your stock injectors back in for now and see if your hesitation goes away, and then if you must run aftermarket injectors get at least 21lb injectors.

[Intense RT]

What resources do I have?? Really? I just gave unquestionable proof that a 19lb injector cannot flow the 22.5lbs others have admitted it flows based on the fuel pressures we know for a fact are used.

At least Alan actually did some research to prove my point unlike others who just want to stick to the assumed numbers. And people say I'm always the one who wants to argue. I posted facts and proof to back them up and you still argued against them without proof to back it up.

No I didn't Brian. You are too easy to rile up. Never said you were wrong if you read again. Mostly seeing if you still react the same way. I was posing legitimate questions. I don't know where to find these specs you speak of.

So, how about a link?

[hskr]

No I didn't Brian. You are too easy to rile up. Never said you were wrong if you read again. Mostly seeing if you still react the same way.


ROFLMAO Yeah, whatever.

[Intense RT]

I just now got to the shop, so I looked at my stock gray'98 injector and wrote down the p/n. It is Siemens #53030778. I Googled that number and all posts that refer to it say it's a 23.3 lb injector @ 43.5 psi. So, unlike anything Brian's ever done in his miserable life, I will admit that I was wrong. The stock injector is not 19 lbs. It is indeed 23 lbs.
I'm on my phone right now...So with the calculator, at our pressure, would it be higher than 23? I want to know because I have some ford injectors that are rated at 24lb (need to make sure at what pressure they are rated at) so I can rescale my base fuel maps.

Ok, sitting down now. I'll find a calculator and run the two likely pressures for ford inj's I've found they say they are rated at. Last thing I found was they were "rated" at 39.5. Not the 43.5. Wonder if that was the old fox body pressure by chance.

[KTK00R/T]

The stock injectors are fine for a mild heads/cam motor. They are not 19lb injectors.

they're 21's.. I just threw my .02 in.

[KTK00R/T]

I'm on my phone right now...So with the calculator, at our pressure, would it be higher than 23?

yes, but i dunno what.

[hskr]

Get rid of the 19lb injectors, they are too small for your truck and your off throttle hesitation is probably from running lean. Stock we have 21-22lb injectors, so by putting in the 19lb ones you have actually hurt your fuel system.

He has a 99. They were rated at 19.

Since we have higher pressure than what the typical non oem inj is rated at... Then it is possible it flows more fuel than the factory inj's it had. May not be so, but they could be. I don't see a problem but the....possible....need for a tune tweak or something else. Is the fuel pressure ok? Iac clean?

Contradicting me by saying I was wrong about the stock injectors not being 19lb injectors.

I've been through all this before. I had a '99 as well, and even still have my '99 injectors. I did a cross reference search using the part number from my '99 injectors and everything I found came up as 22.5lb/hr injectors. Your results may vary, but I still stand by my research vs what others have just accepted as the "right" rating. The only difference between the '98-'99 injectors and the '00+ red ones is the manufacturer and connector style. The flow rating is the same.

Lol, I know you have...a couple times at least. What pressure were they rated at? If stock pressure then I can see typical 39.5 psi 19lb inj's flowing what, about 22lbs/hr at our pressure. Either way, not a lot of difference to get corrective over. They will work, especially na and no ported heads. Getting off topic imo.

Anyway, to the OP, hope you figure it out.

Once again, contradicting me by saying I am WRONG about the 19lb injectors not being able to work for him. I've been down the road of trying the 19lb injectors and ran lean as hell, which is what caused me to do the research to figure out we don't have 19lb injectors from the factory as everyone wants to assume. Doesn't matter what model year you want to talk about

No they won't work with a ported head n/a motor. been there done that, running 25lb injectors now. Even with a M1, TB, headers, cam you will be pushing them to their max. Not good for injectors to run at max pulse width. And the 22.5lbs/hr rating was at the stock 49psi. industry standard is 43 psi which put them around 21lb injectors. I've done the research, I'm not just throwing numbers out there based on what I've heard others guess them to be. 19lb injectors will work on a mostly stock motor. Once you start getting past your basic bolt ons like CAI, TB, and exhaust they are going start getting too small.

What other resources do you have access to?

I just used several online calculators recently and the number I threw out was off the top of my head... and ford racing inj's are rated at 39.5 ....39 something anyway.

We are also assuming the 22.5 is correct and I have caught errors before where non technical catalog people throw an approximate number in the blank.

Back to the OP's problem...Are we assuming the pump moves the same volume of fuel?

This probably has nothing to do with his problem lol.

Once again, you just want to argue with me over my information because you don't want to accept it because it's me giving the info.

No I didn't Brian. You are too easy to rile up. Never said you were wrong if you read again. Mostly seeing if you still react the same way. I was posing legitimate questions. I don't know where to find these specs you speak of.

So, how about a link?

How bout you follow Alan's footsteps and do your own research. I'm in Cali and my '99 injectors are in Nebraska so i can't look up the info for you right now. Or maybe since Alan pretty much backed up what I was saying about the stock injectors not being 19lb injectors you will just accept it now as fact and move on. His injectors are way to small for his application and he needs to change them. Until he does that he will continue fighting his problem by all the people shooting in the dark throwing out opinions on the problem.

[hskr]

I'm on my phone right now...So with the calculator, at our pressure, would it be higher than 23? I want to know because I have some ford injectors that are rated at 24lb (need to make sure at what pressure they are rated at) so I can resale by base fuel maps.
There is contradicting info out there as to the actual flow rate. fiveomotorsports rates the stock '99 injectors are 23.5lbs/hr @ 43.5 psi, but other places rate them at 22lbs/hr @ 43.5psi.
http://www.witchhunter.com/flowdatapix/s53030778.jpg
Using the part number Alan listed.


Posted on antother forum by Bob Mankin. Some will recognize his name. He was a former R/T owner from the San Jose area who had one of the first Paxton set ups on his truck.

Bernd, your own info that you provided earlier is lower in this post. You
stated, I assume taken from your reference source, that '97-'04 were 12 +/-
1.2 ohms. Take your digital meter out and measure the impedance on the
design III you had tested(as Tony did) from the '01 R/T app or whatever it
is you pulled it from. See for yourself the ambiguous nature of the
published data.

Here's the rundown of the two injectors tested on Wednesday:

Part No. 53030778 injector for 5.9 and some 5.2L apps from '97-mid '00 flow
tested at 234 cc/min @ 43.5 psi test pressure

For those that don't know, divde the cc/min number by 10.5 to get the lb/hr.
rating. That would give you 22.2 lb/hr @ 3 bar or 43.5 psi test pressure.

Testing done at R.C. Engineering by Russ Collins himself. Call him if you'd
like to verify the data. He's forgotten more about injectors than most of us
will ever know. At a minimum you should visit his site at
http://www.rceng.com (http://www.rceng.com/) and read the technical section for some very good
formulas which come in handy.

[hskr]

A 22lb/hr injector rated at 43.5psi flows 23.3lb/hr at our stock 49psi of fuel pressure which gives you the flow rating that fiveomotorsports lists. So I think they need to update their website to reflect the correct fuel pressure.

[hskr]

Since when has the manufacturer governed the color of the injector Brian? Chrysler would have the final say so in what color the plastic for the injectors are made with. Bosch made injectors in several colors in 2000. Not just red.

The reason for the color change was because they switched to a different manufacturer. I highly doubt Dodge really cared what color the injectors were, but the main difference was the switch from the older Siemens injectors to Bosch injectors. Different brand, no other reason for the difference in color.

[Branx5.9]

Fwiw I don't care about the whole debate over the injectors. I do however believe that with his mild level of mods that there is no reason his factory injectors aren't enough. We all know these things run pig rich from the factory.

[grapejuice1998]

Seems like it would be easy enough to put the stock injectors back in it and see if that cures the problem.

[hskr]

I suggest you put your stock injectors back in for now and see if your hesitation goes away, and then if you must run aftermarket injectors get at least 21lb injectors.

Fwiw I don't care about the whole debate over the injectors. I do however believe that with his mild level of mods that there is no reason his factory injectors aren't enough. We all know these things run pig rich from the factory.

Seems like it would be easy enough to put the stock injectors back in it and see if that cures the problem.
Which is why I already suggested the same thing.

[grapejuice1998]

Which is why I already suggested the same thing.

Good. Then we all agree.

[Intense RT]

Contradicting me by saying I was wrong about the stock injectors not being 19lb injectors.





Once again, contradicting me by saying I am WRONG about the 19lb injectors not being able to work for him. I've been down the road of trying the 19lb injectors and ran lean as hell, which is what caused me to do the research to figure out we don't have 19lb injectors from the factory as everyone wants to assume. Doesn't matter what model year you want to talk about





Once again, you just want to argue with me over my information because you don't want to accept it because it's me giving the info.



How bout you follow Alan's footsteps and do your own research. I'm in Cali and my '99 injectors are in Nebraska so i can't look up the info for you right now. Or maybe since Alan pretty much backed up what I was saying about the stock injectors not being 19lb injectors you will just accept it now as fact and move on. His injectors are way to small for his application and he needs to change them. Until he does that he will continue fighting his problem by all the people shooting in the dark throwing out opinions on the problem.
Half a question, half to get you going ... I know this is a topic that gets you quoting...here again.

Besides that, I have seen nothing to go off of that is as near a fact as can be found. I will not take a "word" for it and the story is different depending on who you speak to. Most here know to take everything with a grain of salt.

So, I will find out what is listed for the Siemens part number Alan gave for myself. Sorry, I was on my Android phone and a little less convenient to surf possible multiple sites digging for info. Then I later came back and said I'd do it myself but still didn't think it was a big deal to offer a link.

Contradict you? No, of course not. You KNOW this very subject and have said it multiple times. :nana:

[Intense RT]

Makes a difference as to whether it is a design 3 4hole injector too. Better atomization, less fuel needed due to more complete burn, = the same rated injector but a pintle style or disc style will run into a duty cycle problem earlier assuming both have also been tuned for the same bsfc. Not a common measurement with the engine in vehicle though. ALSO, the style inj that came on the truck has heavier internals than the design 3's so the design 3's could go to a higher duty cycle without losing control.

I got my inj's off Danno as a newb and they seemed to be working for those guys up in the NW from what I understood at the time. Mine are light green and from a 98-2000 Contour SVT. I think they are rated at 19lbs I was told at the time of purchase. I know they are good for 280 ish rwhp on my truck as of my last best ET. I have since made some changes and decided to be safe and, hopefully it's an upgrade, to Ford 24LB inj's.

I need to determine, which I will to the best of my ability to find the info, what press. they are rated at to see approx what they will flow on my truck so I can tune for them.

[hskr]

Good. Then we all agree.
Most of us. Seems Intense still doesn't want to believe.

[Intense RT]

Most of us. Seems Intense still doesn't want to believe.Hey, some of us need to see it firsthand...c'mon now, can't trust everything you read on the net, lol.

To add, it's in my best interest to verify this myself since I need to anticipate a problem since I'm making a change.

[hskr]

Makes a difference as to whether it is a design 3 4hole injector too. Better atomization, less fuel needed due to more complete burn, = the same rated injector but a pintle style or disc style will run into a duty cycle problem earlier assuming both have also been tuned for the same bsfc. Not a common measurement with the engine in vehicle though. ALSO, the style inj that came on the truck has heavier internals than the design 3's so the design 3's could go to a higher duty cycle without losing control.

I got my inj's off Danno as a newb and they seemed to be working for those guys up in the NW from what I understood at the time. Mine are light green and from a 98-2000 Contour SVT. I think they are rated at 19lbs I was told at the time of purchase. I know they are good for 280 ish rwhp on my truck as of my last best ET. I have since made some changes and decided to be safe and, hopefully it's an upgrade, to Ford 24LB inj's.

I need to determine, which I will to the best of my ability to find the info, what press. they are rated at to see approx what they will flow on my truck so I can tune for them.
So you have these.
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/fuel-injectors/?itemid=142

Mfg Name: Bosch
Injector No 0.280.155.911
Description Bosch Injector - XL2E-9F593-B5A
Qty 74
Alternate No Need Info XL2E-B5A
Color Code
Cross Reference
Application
cc/min @ 3 BA 220
lbs/hr @ 3 BAR: 20.95 Ohm: 15.1
Price $12.00 Connector: USCAR / EV6

Which are 21lb injectors.

Just saying, do some research before you go guessing as to what you have to try to prove a point you are losing.

[Intense RT]

So you have these.
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/fuel-injectors/?itemid=142

Mfg Name: Bosch
Injector No 0.280.155.911
Description Bosch Injector - XL2E-9F593-B5A
Qty 74
Alternate No Need Info XL2E-B5A
Color Code
Cross Reference
Application
cc/min @ 3 BA 220
lbs/hr @ 3 BAR: 20.95 Ohm: 15.1
Price $12.00 Connector: USCAR / EV6

Which are 21lb injectors.

Just saying, do some research before you go guessing as to what you have to try to prove a point you are losing.I'm not following your point Brian? I already said what I could to clarify my pov in the last few posts I think. I didn't lose anything...I gained knowledge and amused myself at the same time...win/win. Thanks for the clarification and info btw. Even Danno had it wrong assuming the site is correct.

Looked at the pic and I have the jetronic connection though. Wonder if they are the same then?

[1999BLKDAKRT]

The reason for the color change was because they switched to a different manufacturer. I highly doubt Dodge really cared what color the injectors were, but the main difference was the switch from the older Siemens injectors to Bosch injectors. Different brand, no other reason for the difference in color.

LOL. Are you serious. Why change colors at all.. In reality Brian, Siemens owns Bosch!!! Did you know that???

[hskr]

LOL. Are you serious. Why change colors at all.. In reality Brian, Siemens owns Bosch!!! Did you know that???
Wow, not even sure why I'm even wasting my time with this. Like it really matters.

[Five9Dak]

LOL @ "I have a quick question..."

[Intense RT]

LOL @ "I have a quick question...":jester:

[grapejuice1998]

LOL @ "I have a quick question..."

:jester:

[KTK00R/T]

LOL @ "I have a quick question..."

poor dudes thread

[Special Ed's R/T - Yaaaay]

move your map sensor vac line from the TB to the manifold. get your fuel sync set between 0 & +4. Then come back and tell us how that worked, before we go any further.